Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

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Mindy: We're here with Nova McBee author of the YA trilogy that begins with Calculated, which is pitched as Count of Monte Cristo meets Mission Impossible. Calculated is available now, Simulated is the sequel, and then there is Activated, which is the third book, which will be upcoming. So Nova has a very, very interesting story in that her publishing journey is very much backwards. So if you would like to talk a little bit about what that means. 

Nova: When I say that – my agent was like, who are you? This doesn't happen. And it's not normal. You're not normal. I mean, it's true. Everyone has a completely different path when it comes to anything really, but especially publishing. Some people can get deals within a week and others take seven years. The backwards journey is I got a film deal first, right after I got my agent. And then I got an audio book deal. And then lastly, I got a publishing deal. That is completely backwards. 

We have to talk about our journey. And I remember when I first started writing books, how hesitant I was to say, I'm a writer or I'm an author. You feel like you have to get it somewhere for that to be spoken out. It was a challenge in me and I, I needed to start speaking it out to all my friends and family that didn't know I was doing it–and even strangers–before I had my agent before I had my publishing deal. And because of that, I ended up meeting a girl who was living in China at the same time as me. And she happened to be an up and coming producer. Her father was a producer. So we got to talking about my book that I was still pitching to agents at the time.

And she's like, wow, that sounds like right up my alley. She's like, I'm actually working with these producers right now that are looking for something almost exactly like that. I would like to read it, to see if it's worth passing on to them. You know, how do you say no to that? You're like, okay. And, you don't know where it's going. I was rejected for two and a half years at this point with agents. Let's just try at this point. I gave it to her. Didn't hear back for a while. And then I got an agent and we signed. Maybe three weeks after we signed – on a different book, by the way – and then I get this call from the other two male producers in California. And they're like, this book has gone through our entire team and we need to sign you before anyone else does.

We need the rights to this. And my agent was like, who are you? And what book are they talking about? So she's like, well, I better read this book, you know, which was Calculated. And so she read it in a day and that started this very unique journey of just negotiations and learning about the industry and what that means. And then she's like, well, then we have to put down the other book and we need to focus on Calculated, getting Calculated  a publishing deal. She kind of threw it out to all of her contacts and it was taking again a long time, but she had put it out to some of her audio book contacts and the audio just responded first. And they're like, Hey, we're super interested. We really like it. We wanna sign you. That’s my backward publishing journey. I think it took almost a year.

This new imprint contacted us. They'd heard about the book and they contacted us and said, Hey, we're starting a brand new YA imprint. And we would like to have the chance to read Calculated to consider it as the lead title. And we were not sure because it was a brand new imprint, a very unique style of publisher. They're sort of a mix between independent and traditional. They do both. They're very fascinating and very innovative and very cool to work with because they are so flexible and willing to try everything. I've just had the best experience with how awesome they are, like truly team players. And so they read it, they loved it. We signed that deal. It went backwards very much. 

Mindy: So I think it's really interesting that you had this relationship that got you a film deal. It can feel like it is almost a barrier in some ways, because people are like, I don't have connections. I don't have the things that I need in order to make that happen. I understand that feeling because I had heard for so long that networking is so important. Networking in this industry is a big deal. I am a farmer's daughter from Ohio. I was not going to have contacts in publishing. And I got into the industry by cold querying, my agent picking me up and that was in 2010. And so I've just been building since then. It's been real work, but, but because of the networking that I do, like I did have an in, in the sense that I was a librarian at a public school. So I had connections in the library world that could help me then promote the book, but all of that, networking with other authors and agents and editors, knowing who you are that does take time to build.

Nova: Exactly. And one thing that I didn't mention was while I was cold querying, which is how I got my agent, I actually was accepted into PitchWars. And before Calculated, actually. Pintip Dunn  was my mentor and I didn't know anybody in publishing. I had nobody. I started out as like, you know, zero contacts, like you, in the industry. I was actually living in China at the time with zero contacts. Rachel Griffin, who's the author of The Nature of Witches, we had met on one of my visits back to Seattle. And she's a friend of mine. She was like, yeah, I'm gonna try, try this thing called Pitch Wars. And I'm like, oh, I am so not into contests. But, then I felt like I was supposed to do it. In the midst of that, there was an agent who was really interested in working with me, but I just felt like it was wrong.

And I was like, well, I'm gonna try to do Pitch Wars first. And then I got in and then the networking, like you're talking about it, sort of exploded because you meet everyone in Pitch Wars. My year was just incredible. Everybody was so encouraging. So supportive, all wanted to be friends, all wanted to boost, all wanted to read each other's work. I was like, what is this goodness? Because everyone was just pouring into each other and boosting each other. And it was like the most fruitful year ever, where I just got to meet all these people, it was just sort of placed upon me. And yet I didn't get my agent through that either. You know, my agent was cold querying. All the Pitch Wars agent requests didn't pan out. Nobody wanted Calculated,. And so I, in the midst of that, I wrote another book called The Never House. And I started querying that book and that's the book my agent read and signed me on. And she had no clue about Calculated.

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Mindy: I think it's really interesting too, that we talk about publishing and the different paths of publishing, but I also wanna point out, you did get your agent through cold querying. I know people hate it. I know people hate the process. I know that it is soul sucking. I know that it is hard, but I was querying for 10 years. You gotta get punched in the face, if you wanna be able to move forward in this business. I was rejected for 10 years. 

Nova: That is intense. Mine was two and a half. I watched people give up after like 10 rejections and I'm like, yeah, what? But what? No. And, people do give up. And, but in the midst of that, I was actually growing stronger. It sucks, like rejection does not feel good, but in the midst of that, this article popped up and it was like this actress. I don't even remember who it was, but she was like, if you can't handle rejection, you will never be able to handle success. And I was just like, dang, that's so good. Because in the midst of that, like, if you're not really sure you're supposed to be somewhere, it's so easy to get bullied back out of it. You know, you learn to stand your ground and who you are and what you want and what you think you're supposed to be doing. You know? And it just, for me, it was a good season where I was like, no, it doesn't matter what they say. I'm supposed to do this. I'm gonna write books and I'm gonna get that publishing deal. And it's gonna happen. I don't know when, but it's gonna happen. 

Mindy: You have to build that thick skin. There's no doubt about it. And one of the reasons why I was getting rejected, yes, for 10 years, I wrote four different novels. The fifth one was the one that finally got picked up. I deserved to be rejected for 10 years. I didn't want to process feedback. I didn't wanna share my work with anybody. I didn't wanna have critique partners. Like I didn't wanna do the actual work. I wanted to write a book and have everyone love it. And tell me it was a genius. That is not how this shit works. I had to basically grow the fuck up. So I deserved all the rejections I got and it did make me obviously a better writer. It pushed me out into sharing my work with other people, processing feedback, learning the industry, discovering trends, all of the different things. Yes, it did build that thick skin. 

And you will be rejected. Once you get an agent, your rejection is not over. You're gonna be rejected by publishers. And then you will be rejected by your readers. Like that's just all there is to it. I used to read my reviews. I don't anymore. I simply don't see the point. Good reviews make you rest on your laurels. Bad reviews make you feel like shit. There's nothing you can do about them. You can't respond to bad reviews. That's poor author behavior. So there's literally nothing you can do. I didn't write this book for you. 

Nova: Yeah, no, I think that's so good to talk about, actually. You had to step into like letting people see your work and getting feedback. That happened to me too. And the first time I shared my work with somebody outside of my family and they were like, yeah, I'm not really feeling it. I'm like, oh… But then, but then I'm like, well, why? And they were like, well, because of this and this, and I was like, oh yeah, I can see that. Once you receive feedback and have awesome critique partners, it's like gold. The minute I show them, they're gonna see something that I'm missing. And then I'll be able to go back and make it even better. It's such a powerful stage in the process. It is. 

Mindy: And it preps you for that larger, it may not be a rejection, but it feels like we're when you get your letter from your editor. You get an edit letter. You open it up, you read it. And it's one of two things. You either cry or you get pissed. I get pissed. Like, that's just who I am. I'll read the edit letter. And it's like, you don't understand me. You don't get what I'm trying to do. I usually don't return to it for as long as a week, sometimes two. And then you open it up and you read it again. And you're like, yeah. Okay, fine. 

Because the truth is every time I turn in a book, I know exactly what's wrong with it. When I get that feedback returned that says - Yeah, you were right. You didn't do this good. It's just like, oh yeah? You're just defensive. You know where your weaknesses are. And having them pointed out does not make you a kinder, gentler, more lovely person.

Nova: That rejection keeps coming. And, and then, you know, you'll get reviews on that same book, an author, Shannon Dittemore, we were talking right before Calculated came out. She told me the same thing. She's like, I don't read any reviews. And she's like, I just advise you not to do it. Well, that's really hard to do for the first time author. Right? I did. So of course I read my reviews. Thankfully, the ones that came in right away were good. Like really good. And I was encouraged. 

I had a really cool experience with Pitch Wars when it comes to edit letters, because Pintip Dunn, she was incredible. She marked out all the places that she loved, which I think is the best kind of critique. Here's all the places that you are so strong. And this is why I love the book. This is why I chose you as a mentee. And here's where we can make it really stronger. Calculated, has a dual timeline. And it was already pretty tight, but she pressed me in that. She's like, you can make this better. She's like, you need to pull information that I need in the present from the past and vice versa. The more you pull these two together and you stretch that information. Just those nuggets of truth that she really passed on to me, just like really built me as an author as well. 

And my agent, her name is Amy Jameson. She's absolutely incredible as well. She launched Shannon Hale's career, and Jessica Day George. And she's an editor too. So before my work goes to the publisher, she reads it for me. She doesn't give me a huge edit letter, but oh, I will have comments all the way down. She tells me, I'm your toughest critic, but I'm also your greatest supporter. She goes through the whole book with me. And I don't know if that's part of her job description, but she just believes in her clients.

Mindy: I have a very, very good relationship with my editor. For one thing we've been working together since 2015 at this point.

Nova: Is that at Harper Teen, are you with Harper?

Mindy: I’m at Katherine Tegen, which is a branch of Harper. So I'm with Ben Rosenthal and he's been with me since 2015. We've actually worked together a lot and that's kind of rare and we have a wonderful relationship. So my agent is pretty hands off in the editorial area because she knows that I have a great relationship with my editor and that he and I are gonna hash that out. And we work really well together now. I've also been with my agent for 12 years. So in the beginning she was a little more hands on, but now that I'm a little more established and I have my own relationships within the publishing industry, everyone knows that I am not going to turn in junk and that I am going to fix whatever you say needs to be fixed. Like I am going to work my ass off. People know that about me. So I already have that reputation, so she doesn't have to guide me editorially like she did in the beginning. 

Nova: That's so true. And every publishing house will be different, you know? Are all of your books with Katherine Tegen? 

Mindy: With the exception of my two fantasy novels that are with Putnam? Yes. 

Nova: That's amazing. Wow. I'm impressed. 

Mindy: I love, I love the imprint. Also of interest - I've had the same cover designer for all of my books. 

Nova: Wow. Are you kidding me? 

Mindy: No, I'm not. The ones that are with Putnam aren’t her, but yes. 

Nova: You know, just having a team that you know, and that you trust. That's so powerful as well. It's just so cool. Cause then you guys know how to work together. You know, each other's systems and you can speak freely with each other. I'm assuming. 

Mindy: Oh yeah. Very. I would like to talk about using the classics and in your particular case, the Count of Monte Cristo, as a launching point for your story. So is it a story that you've always loved? Like what led you there? 

Nova: I didn't know anything about the industry when I started Calculated. So I was living in China and then also, I've lived abroad for a long time. I've also lived in Europe, in the MiddleEast. And I actually read the count of Monte Cristo when I was living in France. It's intense. 

Mindy: I've read it.

Nova: But you're so steeped in the story that it stays with you for so long. It just like completely captivated my mind. And I went through a whole period of time when I knew I wanted to be a writer where I went through a classic period. I'm from Seattle. And there's quite a large community of people who are anti-trafficking, you know, Seattle's a hub for that. So I had come back to the states for a little trip and I had gone to this trafficking meeting and I was just sitting in my living room afterwards thinking like, what if this story happened today? Where would it be? It would have to be a super powerful country. 

And at the time I was living in China, I was like, oh, what if it happened in China? Who would be taken? Would it be a guy or a girl? I was like, oh, it'd definitely be a girl. And like, the story just started evolving in my head. What if I could do a spinoff? How would she transform into all of these identities? Cause like in the count of Monte Cristo, he has more than one identity. He's not just the count of Monte Cristo, he has multiple identities. In one morning. I had the whole story in my head, but it took two and a half, three years to write that. And it was my first novel. 

Mindy: It's pretty fascinating how you can take these disparate things in your life. Like you were saying, it was a book that you had read and then living abroad and then being involved in this, this trafficking concept and those things all coalesce. Last thing, why don't you let people know where, where they can find all of your books and where they can find you online. 

Nova: Of course you can buy them on Amazon, but they're also through any bookstore. You can order them through any bookstore online. And my local bookstores, the Edmund's Bookshop and Third Place Books, you can order them there. There's signed copies in those bookstores. I'm on Instagram and, and Facebook. You can find me there and Twitter, I pop in on sometimes, but not, not usually. And yeah, my third book comes out in April and there's exciting film news about to come in the next few weeks. So I'm looking forward to announcing all of that and hope people like my books!

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Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.