Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.
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Mindy: So your new book, The Thursday Murder Club is a murder mystery that features elderly protagonists, and it's really interesting and a fun take. So can you tell us a little bit about where this idea came from and how you decided to flush it out?
Richard: Yeah, absolutely. It came from, real life. I've been a writer for my whole life. I've never written a novel. And I kept thinking, I must do one, I must do one and a couple of years ago I went to a retirement community in England. A really, really peaceful place in the middle of nowhere. But, you know, lovely sort of surrounded by kind of ancient Woodland. I mean, it's lovely. Rolling green Hills and lakes and all this stuff.
And like any good crime reader, I took one look around at and thought, This would be a good place for a murder. But you know what I mean? With the bird song and you know, the quiet. Then we went for lunch at this place and it's this community, you have to be 70 to live there, but it's incredibly, it was an incredibly social place.
And as I started talking to people, and you know, chatting about their life stories, what they'd done before, all this kind of stuff, I thought, wow, if there was a murder here, then I bet you lot could solve it. And a bet one of you would have done it as well. Those were the types of people. And then I was looking at a notice board and they had things like incredible social life at this place.
And they had like Tuesday French club and Wednesday knitting club. And just the thought Thursday murder club came into my head. And I had just this thought of four people in their seventies. Once a week, they meet up to look over old unsolved police cases, essentially. It's an excuse to sit down, have a couple of bottles of wine, you know, have a gossip, have a chat and look out over old police files.
And then there's a real murder in their community. And the four of them all in their seventies decide they'll be the ones to investigate and solve it. And the book is essentially, it's about the mystery about what happens, but it's also about how on earth four people in their seventies can get themselves to the heart of a police investigation and can solve this murder.
And this idea of them being so overlooked and underestimated and people thinking they're so harmless that actually they can sort of get away with whatever they, whatever they want. And that's the, that's the kind of basic premise, as soon as I had those. There's a murder in this beautiful place. We've got these four people they're in a club. I literally that night, started writing.
Mindy: Yeah, I love it. And actually, as you were explaining it, I thought to myself, well, of course, I mean, that makes perfect sense. It takes so much time and mental effort. Who has all the time to sit around and try to solve old cases, let alone a new one and just like, Whoa, retired people. Yeah, that makes sense.
Richard: Well, what I thought. Once I went, I went there. It's like being on a college campus where everyone's over seventy. So everyone's hanging out and there's lots of gossip and politics, but yeah, no one's got any work to do. No, one's got any assignments to hand in. So they've got a lot of time on their hands, and you know, murder and investigating murder is sort of the, is the perfect thing, but also the skills they bring to it.
Because, you know, the four members of the club, have very, very different backgrounds. So at the heart of this, it's got these sort of unlikely friendships. One was a nurse, one's a psychiatrist. One was a labor activist. And one, we're never quite sure what she does, Elizabeth, but it's clear that she was very high up in the MI6 and that she was a spy. And is able to bring some of her past life to bear. But they've all got such different skills.
And as you say that you get to 70 odd and you've got a lot of experience of life and you know, a lot of things. You know an awful lot about human nature as well. And so, it felt to me like as soon as I started writing it, I thought, well, of course, these are the perfect detectives, you know? Time on their hands, experience of life. Everybody overlooks them anyway, and it's such a joy to write them. And so far in the UK, at least it's been a joy for people to read, which has been thrilling.
Mindy: That's wonderful. You know, I remember reading not so long ago, a news article about a program where they were teaching young people, teens who wanted to learn English as a second language, they were having Skype, like weekly Skype conversations with elderly people in nursing homes. Because these people are dying for someone to talk to and for the interaction and these students simply just want to be immersed in the English language.
Richard: There's an epidemic of loneliness amongst the older people. We all kind of know that and I think it's something that's going to be, you know, addressed in the next few years because I think people have worked it out. And when I went to that community, I genuinely thought, well, this is how we should all live. You know, it was so communal and obviously you shut your front door, you don't have to see anyone. But if you want to, you can sort of go out and there's communal facilities and all of this and everyone who reads the book, just says, well, how old do you have to be to live here? Because I want in. Because you know, it's such a nice place. And it's just a, you know, you've got, there's such a great group of people.
It's incredibly social and everybody is, I'm having to keep secret, the real place where it is because I promised the residents, the real residents there, that I wouldn’t. Because they're all quite, there are no fools over there. They’re lawyers and all sorts of stuff there. So they sort of know, especially over here it’s been such a huge sensation. They know there’ll be tourists. I'm having, I'm having to keep it a closely guarded secret.
Mindy: Speaking of the communal aspect of the highly social aspect of the-- Do they call them nursing homes in Britain? Or is there another word?
Richard: Well, there are such things as nursing homes, but this is a much bigger thing. This is a whole retirement community. So it's entirely independent. It's entirely sort of, I mean, there's a nursing home on site as well for when people are incapacitated. And one of the characters who was previously in The Thursday Murder Club is, essentially in a coma in the nursing home at the same facility. But yeah, so this, this would be a retirement community, I think.
Mindy: Okay. So I've heard for a long time through friends that work in the nursing community and also just as a kind of a common thing that people either assume or know to be a fact is that there's actually a lot of sexual activity among the elderly in these communal living situations. And I thought that was, I thought that would always be something interesting to kind of visit in a fictional story.
Richard: I don't shy away from it. I mean, in, in the same way that the murders happen off camera in this story. So does that, but Joyce who's on main narrator who used to be the nurse, is a widow, but she has always got her eye out for the next guy. She has a, has a sort of affair in the book that that's, I think is quite interesting, but you know, she clearly has lost none of her libido, none of her romantic libido either. And the two guys in the, in The Thursday Murder Club Ron, the labor activist and Ibrahim, a psychiatrist, they do have a long conversation about their physical capabilities, were they to be in a romantic relationship.
And they both admit that, listen, it would be harder these days. And it was a, and Ron says, honestly, it's a huge relief. It gives me so much free time now I'm not constantly, and I'm not constantly thinking about it. Yeah, constantly worried about is this actually, there's a real freedom to it.
My starting point for the whole thing was these people are in their seventies, but, I mean, they have - there's zero difference between them and someone in their fifties or thirties or twenties. The brain is the same. The desires are the same. The appetites are the same, you know, you just, you just are in grief a bit more and pain a bit more. And you know, you, you understand mortality a bit more and there's physical issues, but you know, the fun of it is writing them, like I know they are, which is just as 23 year olds in 75 year old bodies.
Mindy: Absolutely. And I'm so glad that you address that aspect because as I had said, I'd always heard that there was as much if not more sexual activity going on. And so I'm, I'm really glad to hear it. That sounds great -- Solve murders, have sex.
Richard: By the way, great name for another podcast. Solve murders, have sex.
Mindy: That one, that one might catch a little faster.
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Mindy: So you've mentioned a couple of times. I know you've had just fantastic reception in the UK with the book. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Richard: Obviously when it's my first novel and people here know me a bit, cause I do various TV shows, but it's not some, you know, I'm not known as a novelist. This is my first one. And so we were sort of quite hopeful. We thought it'll, you know, but at least people will hear about it. Which is good. That's something. But yeah, I think in it’s first three weeks we've sold 200,000 copies or something, which is completely unprecedented over here. It's been number one in the independent book charts on Amazon and the Sunday Times. So all of that, which has been, has gone absolutely beyond the wildest dreams.
I think that, firstly, it's, it's a mystery, you know, and we love that. It's like Agatha Christie type mystery. But secondly, You know, in this very bizarre year, we're having, you know, it's a book -- and honestly it was written before the pandemic or anything like that -- but it's, but it's the book that comes, that has a lot of humor in it that will make you laugh. It's a book that has the one that you cry as well. But, but it sort of has a, has a, has an overall feeling of warmth and friendship and kindness and some terrible stuff is happening. But it comes from my central standpoint to life, which is a standpoint of kindness and friendship.
And we’re all told these days that everyone's at each other's throats and, you know, the social media tells us we're all competition. Actually in our daily lives. I don't believe that's the case, you know? And I think actually the real world has more companionship and community, than Certain people would like us to believe
And that's where the book comes from. I think that's why people have really responded to it, you know? And that's why people have read it and recommended it and said, this has made us feel better. And, you know, I think it's, I think it's a combination of things.
Mindy: I think that's absolutely true. I was actually having a conversation with my agent yesterday about where to go next and what kind of projects we were going to be pitching. And that was something that has come up like repeatedly, speaking with my other author friends, about what's in and what do people want right now? And it just keeps coming up. People want light reads. People want humor. People want to escape where we are.
Richard: It’s so interesting though, isn't it? Because you know, more than anyone, it's all very well saying what I should do today, but, you know, by the time a book is written and it comes out, it’s two years later.
And so I was right when I was writing, it was all the big sort of psychological, thrillery kind of unreliable narrator type books. And I just sat down and wrote the book that I would have written at any stage, I think. But it's, you know, and people would say, you know, in my other life of TV, you know, every couple of years, you know, you have A Great British Bake Off or a show like that, or Dancing With The Stars and people go, Oh, is there a trend now for, for, for really sort of lovely, kind friendly Telly and you go, yeah that trend is always there. Yeah. You're never going to, if you make a decent show that is about decent human beings being decent to each other, and it's a good show you're always going to do well. That never goes out of fashion.
Obviously when you're writing, you're thinking oh God, what is this like? What other books is this like and those, all kinds of things. Cause I'm not entirely sure I can work at, you know, this isn't an Ian Rankin book, but you know, he's such a genius that, you know, I, I can't be him. and so you just have to trust the voice don't you? You just have to trust the process. And I think it came out at a good time as well. I think we've been lucky in that regard.
Mindy: Yeah, absolutely. Fortune favored you. And I think too, you're right. I mean, obviously you can't ever write to a trend if you're going to be working in traditional publishing because you're working 18 months to two years ahead of time. The indie world and the self pub world, they're a little more limber on their feet and they're able to respond more immediately to trends, but yeah, you're totally right. If you're going the trad route, you just have to write the book of your heart. You have to write what's there.
Richard: You know, there's a lot of girls on the trains after Girl On the Train, but, you know, Girl On the Train, wasn't written to follow a trend, if that makes sense. Sometimes, sometimes you have to set that trend, but yeah, that's self published world is interesting and I'm fascinated with it as well. Because, you know, from my world of telly, which is very, very fast turnaround. Really, you know, if we, if we have an idea, we can be filming it a month later and it can be on air three months later.
And going into the world of publishing, the thing that I've noticed is a very, very, very long, lead time and very long PR and publicity. And so you must be in a world where the people can get stuff out much quicker.
Mindy: I am traditionally published, but I have friends that work in, that are hybrid or strictly Indie self pub. So they have that mobility. I am still operating in the traditional world. When I talked to my agent about like, what's next? What are we doing next? It's more about in terms of, What is the next like, are we going to shift in my career, more about marketing and branding? Not necessarily about like, what can we respond to this right now?
Richard: But when you're talking to your friends who are, either hybrid or, or, you know, in, in, entirely in this new world, is there a jealousy at all or not a jealousy, but is there a kind of, some of your mood - I'd love to be able to move this quickly, this mobile.
Mindy: Absolutely. There are so many benefits to going that route. I mean, if you're good at marketing, you're good at self promotion and you can understand how, how to optimize like SEO and ads, which are what's tricky. Like me getting the visibility is what hurts. If you can do that and be a good writer. I do think that it is an absolutely valued way to do your business.
Also, one of the things that actually I find myself the most jealous about, as opposed from a trad to myself, pub friends, is that they have immediate and automatic feedback on what is working and what isn't.
Richard: Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating because lots of it is kind of online e based and computer based.And so people are immediately telling them. What they think and what they want for the next one. And that kind of feedback loop just it's very loud because traditional publishers, again, it's different because it, because it feels like, a lot of the, a lot of the clothes that it's wearing are the clothes of the last century. That somebody, one of these sides, if one of these sides really does the proper lessons of the other side, then someone's going to come up with a hybrid that blows everything out of the water with that.
Mindy: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, no, I agree entirely. And I've been in publishing. I've been publishing since, well, let's see like eight, nine years now. And I can tell you one of the things that frustrates me most is when I'm speaking with someone that is not in the industry, someone that knows nothing about the publishing world or even the entertainment and media world. And they say and my book came out like on Tuesday and on Friday. They're like, so how's the book doing?
You know, because you've hit like high levels where you're getting that reporting right away. I am, you know, not going to sell 200,000 copies in a week. So I don't have those numbers. I don't have them for about six months. And so when someone says, how's the book selling, I have to literally say, I don't know. That seems very archaic.
Richard: And the economics of these self publishers as well, are they taking any upfront money or are they literally, are they literally getting it hosted and then taking a much bigger percentage of each sale than you might do in a traditional publishing group?
Mindy: Yes, absolutely. A much bigger, much bigger chunk of it, the sales and immediate feedback on your ads and the promos that you do, and, you know, what's working There is some upfront cost like you, you typically, you're going to want to buy software to do your internal design. And usually you're going to pay someone to do your cover. If you're smart, you're going to get a copy editor that's going to make sure everything's clean. But I mean, there is upfront like you're, you're probably looking at, if you're going to launch something and really be aggressive, you could put in three to five grand just to get yourself out there and it may or may not pay off.
And that is where, that is where you don't know. And that's why I do enjoy my traditional publishing little, you know, feather lined cradle, where I get an advance. And I get that advance whether the book dies on the vine or not.
Richard: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, there's an awful lot to be said for it, isn't there? I really, really admire people who do that self-publish thing and they were their own marketers and stuff like that. Because the other thing that strikes me in, in this one, I mean, for you, I'm a TV producer, Really. And so I understand telly and marketing and PR and stuff like that.
You know, I, I will make sure, I'm really proud of the book. I'm really proud of The Thursday Murder Club. So I feel like it's something I want to sell. So I know what TV shows to go on and how to be on those shows and how to sell them, what the optimum way of using social media and stuff like that is, and I've been amazed by how many authors don't really think that that's their job.
Mindy: Yep.
Richard: Which I understand because, because there's obviously. You know, there's the introvert thing and the artist thing, but it feels like that you said it probably has to be one's job.
Mindy: Yeah. If you want to succeed, you have to, because there are plenty of aspiring authors out there that will be willing to figure it out and to do that heavy lifting.
Richard: Hmm. I mean, it all comes to the good news is I think anyway, I mean, you tell me if I'm wrong. It feels like it all, you have to have a good product. I mean, there's no, there's no shortcut there. You know, you have to have something that people love to read. But if you've got that, then I feel like it's...
I mean, I've been doing lots of, in the last few weeks, I've been going to lots of independent bookshops in the UK who've done such an amazing job in the pandemic, you know, and you know, it's such a heart of their community. And the fact that I'm going to all those places, and then I'm doing TV and talking about those places, they're saying, look, this is just great.
Cause that’s bringing people into the stops and then they're buying this book and that book, and the industry is a selling industry. And that's us, and it's the booksellers. And, and it feels like, it feels like people don't quite understand that they're in an industry where there are products and they need to shift some units, for everybody's good.
Mindy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It is very true. And I know a lot of, especially aspiring authors, most of the people that have had a long enough tail in the industry, the reason why they're there is because they figured that out. But when I'm talking to younger writers or new writers or people that are just interested in getting into the industry they're looking at, but how much of my own promotion do I have to do? Well, as much as you possibly can, if you would like to succeed. And that's just, that's just the way it is. We are no longer, writers are no longer living at the top of an ivory tower and casting our pages out to the masses.
Like it doesn't work anymore. No, one's going to be standing there waiting for you to drop them so they can catch them. Like you gotta go out there and get people's attention. And I understand that that doesn't necessarily fit with everyone's personality, but the truth is that in the new tech world of media, like I have been around people that don't like to use microphones. And I'm like, well, you know, we're speaking to an audience, so you're going to have to talk into the microphone.
Richard: Yeah. There's a lot of tricks in that, but it's interesting, because the one thing you would think that would unite all writers. Is they’re good with narrative. They're good with stories. They’re good with empathy. And to me, selling has always, it's been about that. It's all, it's all it is, is narrative and empathy.
And you know, so maybe it's the way it's presented to people. I think people don't like the idea that they're showing off or that they're saying, I'm great. And I sort of think that, it isn't that it's, are you proud of your book, and if you are proud of your book, then, you know, it's the book that you need to talk about. Not you that you need to talk about. But it's some, I, I do get it and you know, it must be very, very hard if you're, you know, if you're… Cause I'm happy sitting for two years, writing a book by myself, but I'm also then happy to keep going out and talking about it. But I think some people are one mode or the other, right?
Mindy: Yes, absolutely. I agree with you. I am a bit of a unicorn myself in that same manner that I could be alone for three months and I'd be fine. And you can put me in front of 2000 people to speak and it doesn't bother me. Like I, in fact I enjoy it. I love it. I get energy from them and it's a, it's a feedback loop of me loving them and them loving me or hating me either way. I mean, they can hate me. That's still energy. Yeah. So, I mean, whichever way it goes.
But I do know, and I have plenty of friends that are good at one and not the other and good, or just medium at both. And just an effort if you just put an effort in there, I mean, chances are, you're going to reach someone. Someone is going to see you and something about you or your speech, how you speak, how you present and yourself, it will resonate with someone. And if it resonates with that one, someone it's a, you know, it's a pebble in the pool and those ripples are going to go out.
Richard: Yeah, I think, I think that's exactly right. And it's fascinating cause I do, I know that-- listen, the key thing here is let's talk about writing. Let's talk about our characters and, and all this stuff, but that's, that's the fascinating thing. Having worked in a creative industry, my whole life, the creative bit of this is the same, but the selling bit has been really, really, really, different. And so I find that, and it's lovely. I'm learning so much from my team over here. And a couple of them have said a couple of times, Oh it’s really interesting listening to you talking about the best way to use television or the best way to use social media. Perhaps we can do that next time, but it's, I love it. It's such a lovely industry. Everyone's been so supportive. Other writers, I’m just amazed by how incredibly kind everyone is to each other. Right?
Mindy: Very much so. And I can tell you, that's not just a British thing. In the publishing industry, we have it's, it is uncommon to be in an industry where everyone is helpful and looking out for everyone else. But the truth is, especially in the publishing industry, we're not fighting for audiences. We're not trying to scoop other people's readers. We always say over here, That a rising tide raises all boats.
So like you're saying you're going into these indie book shops. People are going to come and see you, and then they're going to go browse and they're going to go pick up. I mean, very few people walk into a bookstore and buy one book. They're going to go in and they're going to find someone else. And they might find an author that they never would've come across. They may pick up a book and that author is benefiting from your success. And that continues to be true.
Richard: Yeah, I don't think, I think publishing, but you know, television is interesting because as a unit, in terms of audiences, it's getting smaller and smaller, I mean, not crazily so. But publishing is not a zero sum game at all. And I've really, really noticed it is some crime fiction doesn't need any help for me over here at such a big genre. But the fact that I'm in this genre, I am, I can bring a slightly different audience into it from my TV stuff. And so I can, you know, I'm sort of doing interviews that you might not otherwise read, but talking about, you know, Ian Rankin and Val McDermid and people like people like this, you kind of see that.
Yeah. I love the, the rising tide raises all boats because it's exactly right. Isn't it?. And, and, you know, that's, it's, I just have been stunned right from the start about how supportive people are, how excited people are about someone else's success, you know, how great they are about, you know, everyone, if someone's in the top 10, everyone's tweeting about it and stuff like that.
And it seems so far. I've been in the industry for a short while, but it seems genuine. I could be wrong, but it seems genuine.
Mindy: I believe it is. I really do. I've never had anyone knowingly resent my success and I think people, people are pretty open with their feelings. Right? Especially on Twitter.
I've only got you for a couple more minutes. So why don't you tell the listeners where they can find your book? Now I'm in the US I do have international audiences, but when is the book releasing in the US?
Richard: In the US it was out on the 22nd of September. So it's freely available now at all your usual online places, but also lots of, indie book shops. And what have you, I don't know, Barnes and Noble, then they do all the kind of, major US places. And hopefully, more and more as we go into Christmas And in terms of the rest of the world, I think was in, I think 30 territories now, I think we're in China and Russia and France and Germany.
And obviously all that when you're publishing Britain that also covers Canada and Australia and all of that. So yeah, we're in loads and loads of places and it's a really English and British book, but I think that in that. Americans love British books. And Brits love American books, right? Because it's like the same, but different.
I though,t writing this book and also because people know me in the UK, I thought, well, I can see how this might do well in the UK, but the second that, you know, France, buy it in Germany, buy it and Spain buy it. You're going to think. Okay. You sure? You know, they kind of read the birth and they don't mind that it's in England. They just like the characters and that's been, that's, that's something I hadn't predicted if I do a TV show sometimes they don't travel and with this, I sort of assumed it wouldn't travel, but I forget, but it's the power of story And the power of character.
Mindy: Right.. It is. I weirdly have a very large, Portuguese audience. Yeah. I mean of all things. And I'm just like, that's awesome. Very cool. So, you know, and I will, engage as much as I can. Of course I use Google translate and it, I'm sure it comes out like stilted and awkward, but they, they really appreciate that you’re trying. And so it's really cool.
Richard: Yeah, that's amazing. And, and, and Portuguese audience, of course you can pivot fairly easily into Brazilian audience, which is hundreds of millions, right?
Mindy: Yep. Exactly. So I'm not complaining. so again, the book is The Thursday Murder Club by Richard Osman. And why don't you let listeners know where they can find you online?
Richard: You can find me on Twitter at, at Richard Osman, and you'll find it’s very, very English, but there's a bit of fun. I talk about British TV, a lot and British and British sweets and candy and chocolate and stuff quite a lot. And on Instagram I am Mr. Osman on Instagram. But Twitter is my, is, is mainly where you'll find me.
Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.