Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see as a guest.
Mindy: We are here with Lynn Forney who is the author of Choosing Survival: How I Endured a Brutal Attack and a Lifetime of Trauma through the Power of Action, Choice, and Self-Expression. So I want to talk to you about quite a few different things here today. Of course, I want to talk about your experience and what happened to you... Trauma upon trauma after your initial experience and then the process of recovery and then also writing about that. So why don't you just start by telling us about Choosing Survival, what happened to you, and why you chose to write about it?
Lynn: First of all, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I was attacked when I was 21 years old. I woke up with a man next to me. He started stabbing me. I was stabbed 7 times, and I lost approximately 21 pints of blood. That experience alone was traumatic enough. I was on life support for quite a few days. And when I got off life support, I was being somewhat accused of possibly stabbing myself. And that was shocking and horrifying. I had experienced pretty severe depression a couple of years prior to this. So I understand they have to look at all the angles, but the facts would never have led anyone, I think, to believe that. But the police department, years later, came out that they were covering up crimes. Janet Reno did an investigation of the Boca Raton Police Department years later. Having this happen to me and then not being believed has led to years of trying to recover from that.
Mindy: Victim shaming, on top of that... Not only are you possibly lying, but did you do this to yourself?
Lynn: I had to take a lie detector test, and I kept looking at the guy like, "This is impossible." And he's like, "no, people have done this to themselves." I'm like, "I don't think so."
Mindy: When did this happen?
Lynn: May of 1998.
Mindy: Okay, so I was about the same age in the 90s. I would like to believe that something like that would not happen today. That if you were subjected to a violent attack, you would not then have to not only recover from your attack, but also take a lie detector test to prove that you had, in fact, been attacked.
Lynn: I still question what was worse, getting attacked or not being believed.
Mindy: Well, and it becomes a question too... I'm sure, you'd already experienced some effects of mental health issues. Depression is obviously something that can really mess you up. I think to have that additional layer of other people questioning you in a pretty intense manner, I'm sure only exacerbated the situation.
Lynn: Question like, what's wrong with me? Why did this happen to me? And why are people treating me this way? What is wrong with me? Definitely.
Mindy: Absolutely. So what led you to want to write about this?
Lynn: When I would start to get into the story shortly after this happened... Seeing people's facial expressions and reactions, I would just kind of be like, I know this is so all so crazy. I should just write a book. I should just write a book one day. I wasn't convinced I would do it, but I've always wondered what can I do with this? There's got to be something I can do to help other people. I can sit there and be in the victim hood of like, “Why did this happen? Why did this happen?” Or I can choose to do something about it. I think with COVID, obviously, we all had to stay inside and lives changed quite a bit dramatically. And for me it meant that my performing arts life, that kind of slowed down quite a bit. And so I just kind of delved into different mindset classes and courses, and then I ended up taking vocal lessons. She also was a coach and had a small coaching container, and so I joined that. And kind of one thing led to another with that small container. I wrote a poem that did end up in the book, and I read that to the group. And getting their reactions was enough to be like, “You know what? Maybe this is the time for me to start writing this book.” So then I wrote the very first chapter. Maybe I have something. Maybe there's something here, and I can kind of continue and actually just finally put this into a book.
Mindy: So many people used COVID as a really good jumping in point to do some things that they had always wanted to but never really had the opportunity or the time. And COVID kind of opened that up. So I offer editorial services as part of what I do here at Writer Writer Pants on Fire, and my inbox really blew up during and then here tapering off after COVID. I've had so many people reaching out to me with projects that they finally found the time to work on or had the opportunity to work on. And then I've also heard, of course, plenty of other people having an opposite experience where they just kind of shut down or mentally COVID was too much for them. Maybe some of that groundwork that you had done before about choosing to take an action might have helped you be a little bit more proactive throughout COVID as well.
Lynn: Absolutely. I mean, I've never doubted that I have chosen constantly to try my best to thrive. Right? Certainly there's days and time periods maybe I didn't do as great of a job, but I think I chose that I would not let this event or this man just completely take over my life. And I've always kind of gone back to that. It's like, "No. I'm not going to let this event just completely shut me down." I'm going to continue doing what I want to do. I'm going to try to move forward and certainly kind of weaving in lots of healing and therapy and all that throughout. But that's always been a part of me, I think, too just to kind of like I'm going to take action. If something like, say, disappointing happens, I might take a few days to kind of shut down and sulk and cry and stay in bed, but then I'm going to be like, "Alright, what am I going to do now?"
Mindy: I'm a fixer, too. I have to go and do something and take action in order to feel like I am preventing something worse happening or improving upon where we are. I am a doer and a fixer. Sometimes things aren't fixable. Not all things, certainly. I can get caught in anxiety loops pretty easily. I'm going to fix this, and I am going to do everything I can about this. And it might not be within my power to fix or it may not actually be a problem. I may have decided there was a problem or created a problem, and then I'm trying to fix something that was never wrong in the first place, which is an impossible situation. Talk to me a little bit then about your recovery and the different methods that you used, because trauma is something that I think a lot of people don't want to own that word. Because they feel like it's reserved for someone that has been in war, or someone that has almost died, or someone that has witnessed a death, or lost a loved one in a tragic or violent way. So obviously, you had a very serious, violent attack. But I do see people, sometimes, resisting using the word trauma for things that have happened to them that they don't feel actually earn the label even though they might be suffering from the symptoms. So, if you could talk a little bit about how you kind of came to terms with what happened and then like your steps forward.
Lynn: I just had this conversation with my coach actually about trauma, and she lost her life partner and she still didn't consider herself having trauma. So I think that's really common, and so many things can create trauma in our brain. And again, like, you want to think that, "oh, I'm stronger than that. Or that's not a big deal." And even for me, I could find myself saying, "well, I was stabbed, but I didn't have that happen. Or didn't have this happen." Like still I wasn't worthy of having trauma. So I totally understand that. But I think we all have trauma to some degree. It is important to look at it and kind of figure it out because it affects our day to day lives whether we want to own it or not. One of my kind of go-tos is... I just avoid. I'm like, I don't need to feel that. I don't need to deal with that. I'm just going to go over here. And that's maybe the downside of the doing and the fixing, right? Because you don't look at the other stuff over here. So, I mean, I did go to therapy. I had a therapist when I went back to college. And then I kind of didn't for a little while, even though looking back, I probably should have. And then for a long time, I just kept trying to go do dance, and I'm going to go do this. I'm going to try to do that. And finally, about I would say about 16 years after this happened is when I found the trauma therapist. And that was really the turning point for me for really understanding and delving way deeper into the trauma. So I did EMDR with her, but even I have to say years after that, I had trauma come up... Responses that I didn't expect. Yeah, I've tried tapping, EMDR, multiple therapists because I just wasn't willing to give up on myself or my life.
Mindy: Trauma responses are really interesting. I only recently started to realize that I also have some some trauma responses that I wasn't expecting. Kind of resurfaced for a bunch of different reasons. Very suddenly. Knocked me all the way off my tracks, right? And I am self-aware enough to be like, "okay, something is wrong." Like I'm reacting very strongly to this, and I recognize that I am. And I know what I'm reacting to. So, it's like this was the trigger. I am looking at my reaction and saying, "okay. You're being ridiculous." But also, I still feel this way, right? Like, I can't...
Lynn: Yeah.
Mindy: I can't logic myself out of this. So, you know that this made you feel like this, but there's no reason for that. So why do you feel this way? And then picking, picking, picking, picking, picking until there's just a heap of unknitted sweaters in front of you. And it's just like, okay, now I have overthought everything, and I am exhausted, and I still feel the same way. I didn't realize that I had at least elements of, if not full blown, CPTSD. My therapist was like, "Dude! This is what's going on. And yes, like you do have this." Similar to you, I would be like, "Well, this happened to me, but… also the Holocaust. So I don't."
Lynn: Right.
Mindy: And it could be a symptom of being women, too. We do tend to trivialize our own suffering sometimes.
Lynn: Yeah. I totally agree with that because we're taught to not speak up or get angry or you're being crazy or you're being a woman, right? Or it's that time of the month or whatever. You understand how the brain works too. The way I was explained, this is very rudimentary, but if you have a circle or a loop that your brain is supposed to go through in any event and it kind of gets stopped, you'll sort of keep going back to that spot over and over again in your brain because you haven't finished that loop out. That helped me understand it. Okay, I keep getting stuck and any time anything is reminding me or my body of that experience, it keeps going to that spot. And then I get retraumatized. And logically I understand. I'm safe. I'm here. I'm sitting in this chair. Your body and your subconscious don't know the difference. It's like, "No. No. We're experiencing that same thing over and over again."
Mindy: I ended up learning a lot about my amygdala, and the reptile is driving the train. Fight, flight, or freeze. And I was kind of in that constant trauma response for a while. And that wears you out. Physically. Mentally. Constant. What do I need to do? Do I need to run? Do I need to hide? Do I need to punch someone? Not great for your social relationships, right?
Lynn: I had a really wild experience after all this therapy that I literally had shut down. Like I witnessed these two men punching each other in the street, which is not great as it was, but I was driving, and I kind of was like, "Do I call the police? Do I try to help? I don't know what to do." So also my fight or flight was like, "Escape! Get out! Get out! Get out!" They broke up, and then I was going to dance rehearsal. And I got in there, and I started telling people like, "These guys were fighting, and I don't know if I should do something about it." And I just felt like all of a sudden everything inside of me just starts shaking. And I started crying. I don't know what's going on. And I had to just go to the bathroom, and I literally just sat in the corner and like shook and cried and had to call my husband. And I was like.. And I knew. I'm here at rehearsal. I am safe. I'm in this bathroom. Nothing is going to harm me. But for an hour, a full hour, I could not stop shaking and crying. And it was really confusing and also kind of embarrassing, if I'm going to be honest. I felt like all these people were judging me because nobody knew really what happened to me. Confusing is really the best word I can describe. Because I'm like, "It's been all these years. I've done all this work. What is going on?" But that kind of led to me creating a solo about it. Like I did a dance solo about it, and that's how I kind of transformed that experience into something that hopefully, again, could help someone that was in the audience and me process it.
Mindy: Specifically, I wanted to talk to you about EMDR because I know that this is something that I myself have used before and am currently using. I have found it helpful. I have talked to a lot of people that use it and have had differing experiences, and I know that you are a proponent of it. So, if you could talk a little bit about, first of all, what EMDR is, and then talk to me about how it has been useful to you.
Lynn: EMDR is a type of therapy that essentially gets your subconscious brain to come forward, come into more of the conscious brain. You generally use like a rapid eye movement. That for me made me really nauseous. So I had to close my eyes, and my therapist tapped on my knees. I will say, first of all, you have to get a really trusting connection to your therapist before you even try this. So I just want to say, if anyone's thinking about it, to know that going into it. She had me try to visualize going through like a boat, calm my brain down, my body down, and kind of visualize going into this safe, really safe place I could always return to. And then she kind of had me go into a cave and like, turn on a TV and try to get things kind of deep that I had repressed on this TV screen.
And that didn't work for me initially, so I just had to kind of keep going deeper. But it's... It's really wild and odd, but really powerful. And I'm sure everyone's experience is a little bit different. So it's hard for me. That was mine. But I would feel all these weird sensations in my body. I would suddenly feel like my legs were like lead, but my upper half was like floating all around the ceiling. I definitely dug some stuff up that I think I've always known was there from very young childhood, but.. And I couldn't get it fully in my memory, like a movie, but I definitely had more information than I had before. And that was kind of terrifying at first. And then every week would go a little bit deeper and try to bring it up again to my conscious memory. But it was a way to understand and process and say like, yes, this did happen to me and this has been with me my whole life. And I just... I couldn't remember it. I never understood why I had these these certain reactions or why I got so depressed or anything like that. So it kind of helped me understand. Okay, like these things happened to me at a very young age. And then I've had all these compound traumas on top of it. So I had a better understanding of my brain and my reactions and my responses and maybe why I was certain ways that I was.
Mindy: My understanding of how EMDR works. You were talking earlier about those cycles and those neural pathways that travel and you travel and you travel and you'll get stuck. Or there'll be something that basically hasn't moved into your long term memory. It's still hanging out on those short term circuits, and that's your trauma. And the whole idea, my understanding, behind EMDR is that your therapist.. And you're right, you do have to be comfortable with your therapist and have a trusting relationship because they ask you to revisit things that are upsetting. Try to really, in some ways put yourself back there to some extent. And while you're there or while you're re-experiencing these things... We use clappers that you hold on to and they vibrate. The idea is that it forces your brain to do left, right, rapid switching.
Lynn: Yes.
Mindy: As if your eyes were in REM sleep, and your brain does the work of moving memories into long term storage while you're in REM. And that's why one of the reasons why REM is so important. And so the idea is that if you can access these memories or these moments or these traumas while your therapist is helping you simulate brain activity of REM, that it will begin to move these things into your long term where they can just kind of dissipate and be weakened essentially.
Lynn: But yeah, you're finishing that loop, basically. You're completing the loop that should have happened. You're literally, to your body and your subconscious, you're experiencing the exact same trauma as if it was happening right then and there.
Mindy: Yeah.
Lynn: So it basically helps you finish out that loop through your neural pathways of your brain so that you're not continually kind of getting triggered and responding in the same way.
Mindy: I've had some interesting physical sensations. You were talking about legs being heavy and your top half feeling light. I have had, certainly not a tingling or anything like that, but I have just suddenly been aware of the back of my brain. I haven't necessarily felt it in any sense that there's a sensation, but I'm just like, "Oh, it's there." I'm just like more conscious of it during EMDR and then for a little bit afterwards. I asked my therapist. I was like, "Is this something that other people have reported?" And she said she has one other client who says she feels like a tickling almost at the base of her brain when she's doing EMDR.
Lynn: Yeah, I definitely remember all kinds of weird sensations like that. Like my head was a balloon and floating around. It was really strange. But she also explained to me too, that I dissociated like all the time. I was living in a constant state of dissociation, which I didn't fully know. And I wasn't like to the point where I'm different people. She kind of explained there's five stages until you get to the point where you have multiple personalities. In other words, you can get up to stage four, but you're constantly in a stage 1 or 2. And kind of after that process, she could even tell... she's like, "Your eyes are brighter. You're more forward in your body." And it's hard to explain if you haven't experienced that, but it's like I could feel more present. I'm more present than I ever have been. And it wasn't like I wasn't aware or didn't know.
Again, it's a hard thing to describe to people who've never experienced it, but I would often feel like if I was starting to talk about something with a prior therapist that was difficult my head would kind of start feeling balloony. Or like I would be laying in the bed and I would suddenly feel like I was about three feet above my body, even though I was still in my body. Things like that. I would have those weird sensations. So when she explained that to me, I was like, "Oh, that makes sense." And so it just... If you're not fully present, you're not experiencing life the way you should be, right?
Mindy: Yeah. And some of these side effects and symptoms are things that are almost impossible to explain. I very recently, this past summer, I went off a SNRI that I had been on for about 15 years and...
Lynn: Oh wow.
Mindy: Oh, it was terrible. The withdrawal process was horrible and the disassociation was strong. Really scary. I knew what was going on, and everyone in my family and my close friends, like they knew that I was weaning off of a antidepressant. And that things were going to get funky. And so people were... People were helpful and everybody was watching out for me, and that was very useful. And it was good.
Lynn: Yeah.
Mindy: But when you are living in a constant space of not being able to trust yourself and even your own perceptions of yourself, it is extremely difficult to move through the day.
Lynn: Like I would have moments of completely blacking out and this would be like two seconds. But I remember being in a dance class, something I really enjoy, and then all of a sudden I'm like, "Oh, I'm back. I don't know where I went, but I left." And so just weird experiences like that, and then you're like, "Well, is this going to happen all the time? Is this a normal thing?" And so, yeah, you're constantly in this, a little bit of a state of worry. Again, that fight or flight is getting just amped up. Well, now, I don't know if I'm going to just suddenly leave. It was always like little snippets, but I was aware that it happened. And again, I'm doing something I enjoy. So what's going on?
Mindy: One of the things you talk about in your book is learning how to shift your energy out of low energy or negativity or shifting your focus, and especially mood swings and like difficulty managing where your energy is. Focusing on negativity and things like that. I think, particularly for writers, that would be a very useful skill set. Because we do tend to be emotional people, and a lot of us tend to be... Lean a little more towards the melancholy. Talk a little bit about some tips and tricks for shifting your energy and helping to relocate where that is being directed.
Lynn: There's a few things that I have learned. Things that can shift your energy the most are movement, breath, and sound. So, something that's simple you can try is literally just to like turn on a silly song and dance around to it. Even if you're like not in the mood. Singing along to it is even better. So that can be just a really quick, effective way. A few minutes of that. Breath is always helpful to shift. There's many, many breathing patterns you could do, but just trying to get the deepest breath you can. Inhaling for four counts, holding for four counts, and exhaling for six counts. If you do that ten times in a row, that can really shift some things. Just getting up and stretching. Moving. Doing some twists. Doing some squats. It sounds like it's too easy, but those little things can really shift.
And then for negativity and thought patterns, the most powerful thing I did was I met kind of a shadow part of myself. And she's a very domineering, unforgiving woman named Betty. I did it through an NLP session, which is kind of another way to get to your subconscious. Meeting her and kind of giving her persona. Giving her an outfit. Able to be like, "All right, Betty. I hear you, and I know you're here to protect me." Because that's what they do, right? They're here to protect you. Like, okay, remember that time in third grade you got made fun of? Well, we don't want that to happen again, so we're going to make sure that you don't put yourself out there that same way. So if you write this book, and you put it out there, and everyone's going to laugh at you... That kind of thing. So I could be like, "All right, Betty. I see you. I hear you. Thank you for being here. I know you're trying to protect me, but I've got this." There are days where I'm just really sad. I've done all those things. EFT tapping. That's a really great one too to move energy, by the way. I'm just going to let this sadness be here instead of constantly trying to avoid it or escape it. Because that's what would keep it there longer for me. I'm just going to accept this. I'm going to invite this in. I'm just going to accept that I'm sad. I'm going to accept that I don't know why, and that's okay. Because that for a long time to drove me crazy. Like it's a sad day. I'm just going to be sad with myself, and I'm going to curl up with a teddy bear. Love myself that way and know that tomorrow is a new day. And again, that sounds so trite in some ways, but it really is. And usually that will do the trick. The next day, I'll have a different outlook. I'll have a little bit different mood. I'll wake up a little bit different. So instead of just constantly trying to fight it like, "no, I don't feel the sadness" and shoving it down and shoving it down. It's going to come up. It's going to come out. It's going to come up.
Mindy: I take naps, and I have only in the past, maybe 5 or 6 years, been able to do the, hey, you feel this way right now? You're not going to feel this way in a little bit. Right now, it's bad.
Lynn: Yeah.
Mindy: In a little bit, it'll be better. And you don't want to wait for that in a little bit to get here and be conscious? You just go take a nap.
Lynn: There you go.
Mindy: I'm extremely lucky in that I'm a full time writer. I work from home. I'm my own boss. I absolutely realize that, you know, I have the wealth of time to be able to say I'm going to take a nap, and nobody can stop me. And I'm in charge of myself, right?
Lynn: Right, right.
Mindy: So I absolutely recognize the privilege and being like, you know what? Time out. Taking a nap. I was always someone that pooh poohed meditation. That's dumb, and it doesn't work. I really landed pretty strongly on that for a really long time. And then just recently, within the past like maybe six months, I downloaded the Headspace app because I went off of my depression medication.
Lynn: Yes.
Mindy: And so I was like, "All right. What am I going to do to add another support here? Because I need it."
Lynn: Yeah, yeah.
Mindy: And I ended up using the Headspace app, and it did help tremendously. So I have become a convert to breathing and meditation and exercise. Now, I've always been an athlete. I've always been aware of how much that benefits me just physically and mentally and emotionally. And I go to the gym like every evening. The distinct difference between how I feel after a workout. I'm awake. I'm present. And I know that exercise is like the hardest thing to do when you're not there. If you would just work out, you would feel better. And it's like... That's the last thing that I can do right now. Like that is actually impossible for me. And I totally understand that. Taking a walk, even taking your doggo is something. Just moving a little bit can be so beneficial.
Lynn: And that's why I say like, just do two minutes of just jumping and dancing around. Because I would get stuck in like, if I'm going to work out, it has to be an hour, and it has to be hard core, and it has to be this, and it has to be that, right? Especially if you're a perfectionist and you're hard on yourself. But I think when you're in those really deep, dark places, and I've been there where I couldn't get out of bed for six weeks... So just getting into the shower can make a huge difference. Something about water is very healing. Add like an essential oil of eucalyptus or something. You know, put a few drops in the shower and just get in the shower. That can change your whole day. If you've never experienced this, you're like, "What? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard." I can understand where some people would think that. But if you've ever been in the depths of it, like just getting into the shower, or crying in the shower, is very healing too. Even in those moments where you're just in the depths of it, that that can feel really hard too.
Mindy: I've had those stretches of "I'm going to lay in bed now." You smell bad, and your sheets smell bad. And I drooled in my sleep and my pillowcase stinks, right? I am a piece of shit, right?
Lynn: Yeah, right.
Mindy: And you get up, and you take a shower. Just smelling better. We're going to wash all the sheets. Even if I go back to bed after I do those things, I feel better because my environment is changed, and the environment is a little more healthy. And I have taken some proactive steps. And I don't smell bad, and my bed doesn't smell bad. A little bit of healing in that.
Lynn: Yeah, absolutely.
Mindy: Last thing, why don't you let listeners know where they can find you online and where they can find the book Choosing Survival.
Lynn: Yeah, I have a website. Lynn Forney dot com and you can email me at Choosing Survival at gmail dot com. And my book currently is on Amazon, and it's available on Kindle, paperback, and hardback currently.
Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.