Dina Brumfield On Tracing Women's Rights In China Through Fiction

Mindy: We're here with Dina Brumfield to talk about Unbound, A Tale of Love and Betrayal in Shanghai. So, first of all, why don't you talk a little bit about your personal background and some of the elements from your own life that helped inspire you to write this book?

Dina: This book is a very, very intimate account of mine and people around me, their lives. So I was born in China in Shanghai and I was raised there, lived in a time when basically China was closed off to the entire world. In the time that I was in China, China went through a lot of change from entirely closed to slowly open up. Eventually, I left China to join my family in 1989. You can figure that English is my second language. So I came over here, had a very limited language scale, and I never thought I would write a book in English. 

Of course. I mean I always aspired to be a writer when I was kid, but I thought I would write in Chinese. I thought, you know, the dream to be a writer is just pretty much dead. I mean, it's impossible for me to make it become reality. However, the life that I had in China… somehow it just stayed with me during the time I'm here--I've been here more than 30 years. 

So I went back to China several times. Talk to people there, the young people there. China went through a huge change since I left. Basically raised to a World Player pretty much on the equal footing with us. Now I talk to young people. They Say what are you talking about? Like it’s so far fetched of a story to them? And I wasn't that long ago that I go, Oh, my God, it's only 30 years and people forgot. So that's why I feel like I'm compelled to write a story. As I said, loosely based on my life and also people around me. The reason I do that is because I think history shouldn't be forgotten. When you remember history, there is less chance for history to repeat itself. 

It is about two very strong woman, a granddaughter and grandmother who lived in the 1970’s and 1930’s Shanghai--by the way 70’s Shanghai and the 30’s Shanghai are to complete different worlds--and their struggle to free themselves from, you know, visible and invisible bonds. 

You know, I'm not a seasoned writer and English is my second language. So it was very difficult for me to write, so I didn't have, like, a preconceived outline as how the story should go. You know, I'm not… I wasn't very sophisticated. I'm still not very sophisticated in terms of writing. But somehow this book, I guess it's from my heart. It touched a lot of issues. Women's rights, like freedom, these issues, they're still very relevant in today's world. 

Mindy: Talk to me a little bit about English being your second language and writing a novel in your second language. I'm sure that really produces a whole slew of complications and just an added layer of difficulty for you. Did you write it in Chinese first and then translate, or did you just dive in and began writing it in English? 

Dina: I started in English. Actually, I'm in no man's land right now. So after 30 years in the United States, I don't say my English is great, but my Chinese is terrible, too. So I forgot. My writing in Chinese has become really difficult now, so I really appreciate that the Chinese computer in the Chinese apps I can look up. But anyway, yes, I started in English when I started writing a book, and when I started, I just wrote one page, just the first thing of my book because that scene was my experience and I lived through it. So after all, these years, I still could see it. So I took a writing class and the teacher says, Well, you write something, write one page. So I said, Well, what am I supposed to write? But I could see my experience. Actually, it's almost like, very visual, like the picture in my mind. So I just wrote What I saw and the teacher says it’s actually really good. I need a lot of, you know, clean up, of course, but he actually likes what I wrote. So that was the starting point of my book. 

Mindy: How old were you then when you decided to sit down and begin this process?

Dina: Forties. I was raising my son at the time, my job just didn't work out the way I wanted. I used to live in California. Then I moved to D. C. And my company Let me take my job with me, so I worked remotely. But over the time--I did that for about like fifteen years--Over the time the company went to re-org and I wasn't in office, and so I was disconnected with office politics and as a result they just dumped me into some corner. I thought the heck,  I'm just gonna quit. My husband says- You always wanted to write a book. Maybe it's time for you to try it. Are you kidding? I cannot do that. I just don't have the skill. It's impossible, he said. Okay, try it. Try it. You don't know until you try it. So that's how I signed up for the writing class. And that's how it started. 

Mindy: Coming back to the book, one of the things that's really interesting about it is it has two different timelines. It's set in 1930’s and in 1980’s Shanghai. So writing about those two different time periods and how different China was in 50 years, can you talk a little bit about that about writing the two different timelines and kind of exploring those differences in the same setting? 

Dina: Actually, this is the interesting part of the book. Well, in the 1970s and 1980s I'm very familiar with it because I lived through it. That wasn't difficult for me all these years. I still can see what Shanghai was like when I lived there. However, 1930s is an entirely different story because 1930’s Shanghai - It was called the Paris Off East. It was a booming city and it was full of nightlife. You know, a lot of foreigners there in Shanghai in 1930’s. Shanghai was divided by different countries. You know, they have a foreign concessions, so they have Chinese concession. French concession, British concession, the foreign concession. Even they have a lot of similarities, but because they have different cultures, so each concession is different, their architecture is just different. And the restaurants, they're different. And of course, people who lived there were different. 

You know, it was very interesting in China--and I heard a lot of stories from my grandma about 1930  China. But, you know, I didn't live there. I couldn't feel it. I couldn't touch it, you know, just, it’s quite removed from me. So I was thinking how I can bring that up from paper into life. Fortunately, I live in D. C. So I went to the Library of Congress. So and they have a Asian reading room. And when I talked to the librarian about my book about what I wanted to do, he said, Oh, I know what you need to do.

So he pulled me to the corner, and he gave me a lot of old newspapers about China, what they call microfiche. You can see the image of 1930’s China, So I basically just got engrossed in that thing for a month. Every day I go there like I gotta work, and I just, you know, visualized and see and read the news and see the images of people, how they walk and what the city looks like and just over and over and over and over. And then I eventually could see a picture of that time in Shanghai. And that's how I started. 

Mindy: Going back then, just to those time jumps 1930s and then to 1980s. And then again, just-- it's not necessarily part of the book, but here today China, of course, is greatly changed again. So, do you see any relevance then, between your book and what is happening in China today? Can you talk about the timeliness of your novel?

Dina: I'm not a political person, but I see a lot of similarities in 1930s women. I'm talking - this book is mostly about women. Their life is very restricted. I mean they don't have a lot of freedom. Everything is basically determined for them. Although in the 1930s it was a lot less common -- But still, some women still have bound their feet. That's a lot of physical restriction put on women. That the book is about a grandmother, and she lived in the 1930s and she tried to find love for herself, which failed, of course. Then she tried to break through what was imposed on her and to find freedom in the course of looking for freedom, she sacrificed a lot, and she had to abandon her daughter. 

In my time in the 1970s, women had a lot more power then. We were equal. We could go to school. We call it the college. You know, we could get pretty much all the jobs man could.  Again however, the restriction posted on us is not man and a woman. By then, it's all political. We had to tow the party line. We couldn't do a lot of things that we wanted to do. We couldn't even dress the way that we want to dress. We couldn't listen to the music you wanted to listen to and we had no freedom to pursue what we wanted to do even after you go to college, because a job was assigned to you. So that there is, there's a lot of restrictions. As a result, the character in my book then left the country to pursue her own freedom. 

Today people seem like they have so much freedom. They have a lot more money in their pocket. They could have traveled the world. They could have a lot of things that I couldn't do. However, they still have to tow the line. They cannot say they cannot openly, you know, express their idea, if it's not in line with the party line. And they still have to be very, very careful. So otherwise, you just don't know what's gonna happen to you. The security law, they passed in Hong Kong. I was so sad, you know, that just opens the door for people to go to your home, take your parents away for no reason, and then they slap something on you saying, Oh, you said something against our security law. Whatever. China has changed the law on the surface, but deep in core, I'm not saying the same, I'm sure some steps forward but still have a lot of similarities. So that's why I think my book touched upon that subject. 

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Mindy: And like you said, it is focused on women and female characters. So can you talk a little bit specifically about the woman's life than in China in the 193o’s versus the 1980’s and the difference specifically for females?

Dina: In 1930s China, Even though Shanghai was very modern at the time, a very modern Metropolitan, the core was still very restrictive for women. They cannot date. They cannot marry somebody they love, and the marriage is mostly arranged by family and in some cases, arranged when they were just born. And most women at the time, they didn't go to school. A lot of women at the time couldn't read and write. When they were at home, their fate was controlled by their fathers, when they married after they married, their fate was controlled by their husbands. They had no rights. 

And if they have Children and the husband divorce you and you don't get your Children, the Children automatically belong to the husband's family. So you are nothing. Ao most divorce was unthinkable back then. There is this saying in China is like - you married chicken you go with chicken. Marry dog, Go with dog. So if you are married, you're married. Doesn't matter who you married. You're gonna stick for the lifetime whether you're happy or not. 

Women had no education. That's why my character was very unusual. And she not only chose her own lover to marry and she actually decided to divorce him. Of course, she had to sacrifice a lot, but yeah, she was very strong. And she stood up for herself.  In the 1980’s Women, as I said on the surface, Mao during this time was really promoting equal rights for women, although it was not entirely equal because I remember when I was kid, heir salaries were determined by the government. My dad's salary was more than my mom's so I guess that wasn't equal, even though my mom was a very skilled surgical nurse. 

So when I was growing up, I didn't feel a lot of restrictions. I went to school with boys. I took the college examination and I went to college just like any other boy. Not so much restriction for girls, but the restrictions were on a large scale as a system, systematic repression basically, imposed on everyone, not just girls. I left China 30 years ago. Now I'm looking at the Chinese government. There are quite a few powerful women there, and I look at the business and it seems like there are quite a few women there. But I think over time women in China, they did elevate themselves quite a bit. Sexism, it's much less, and I think they provide the opportunity for women to move up. So long as you tow the line. You have to tow the party line. 

Mindy: Unbound is your first novel and, of course, highly personal to you and had so many elements of your own life and the lives of the people around you. It took you 10 years to write and publish this book because it is so intensely personal. Do you have any plans to continue on writing more novels or working more in The publishing arena? 

Dina: Being a writer has been my dream, and now I actually can hold my book. It's quite amazing. Yeah, I think I will write more, but a lot of people are asking me if I'm going to write the sequel. I'm not sure about that, but I'm writing, my second book is already… I finished the first draft of my second book, but I'm not happy with it. So am I taking another like 5 to 6 years to write it, so I don't know. But yes, I'm gonna continue to write. 

Mindy: That's wonderful, and you are right about holding your book. It is a wonderful moment to see something that was mostly in your mind. And as you were saying before, it's like a Series of pictures for me, too. It's very visual. It's like a movie in my head, and when you've moved that out into the world and it's a physical thing that you can hold, it's a very, very cool feeling.

Dina: It is. I cried. 

Mindy: I think I probably did, too, to be honest with you. That first novel is so special in so many ways and yours particularly because it's so personal. 

Dina: Yes,it is very personal. So hopefully the second novel is not going to be personal, and I've actually decided to write a different story. I have a couple of stories in my head, so some will be a lot of a lot more fun, less heavy.

Mindy: That's wonderful. Last thing - Why don't you tell us where listeners can find you online and where they can buy the book? 

Dina: It's a historical book, and a lot of you know, historical facts are very unfamiliar to people in this country, So I actually on my website Dina Brumfield dot com I put some background to help readers to understand my book so you can look for Dina Brumfield dot com And also I have Facebook, Instagram, under my name Dina Brumfield. 

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Charise Harper On Her Graphic Novel To Help Middle Graders With Embarrassment

Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

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Mindy: So I'm here with Charise Mericle Harper, who's the author of So Embarrassing: Awkward Moments and How to Get Through Them, which is a nonfiction graphic novel for middle graders. So first of all, as a former high school library and I have to say how fantastic this is, what a wonderful idea. I mean, we all know that your early teen years are so difficult, so this is just wonderful. I think to have this book to show kids how to deal with those moments because we're all gonna have them.

Charise: Absolutely. We're all gonna have them. And thanks for inviting me to talk about it. I do want to say that it's not completely nonfiction, certain elements of it are made up, silly stories, and some of these silly stories don't happen to real people. But if they did well, then they're prepared because they read the book. So basically, the reason why I wanted to make the book was for the exact reason that you said is that kids are so sensitive in middle school to their peers if they know that other people are suffering, too, it just makes you feel a little bit better that you know you're not alone because I think sometimes you just feel like the spotlight is directly on you. And that was the case, even though it feels like it's the case. 

Mindy: Absolutely, it does. And I also think that, like it's really important a lot of time, the kids that are a little more, have struggled a little more with self esteem or perhaps aren't the most popular kids. They feel like those embarrassing moments only happened to them, but they happen to everyone. Having some of these possible events and situations illustrated in a graphic novel is just wonderful. So can you tell us an example of one of the embarrassing moments that is in the book? 

Charise: Some of these were taken from things that have actually happened to me in the past. There is a scenario in the book where somebody calls somebody by the wrong name, and instead of correcting the person directly that they have their name wrong. This is the character is Gary, and by mistake, they call him Barry. Instead of Gary saying, Well, you know, I'm sorry, my name's Gary, he lets it go. This can snowball into something that is really hard to deal with later, in the sense that Gary/Barry is introduced to other people by his incorrect name. So now there's more than one person that knows him as Barry. And so what does he do with this situation when suddenly all these people know him as Barry and his name's not Barry, and now he hasn't said anything about it, which is even more embarrassing than if he had said something in the beginning. It just snowballs into that kind of situation. 

And the same thing happened with this cafe that I go to all the time. I knew the owner, uh, from going there all the time. And he did call me Charice. I think the first couple times I went in there when we first moved here. But then somehow he changed my name and it became, Hey, Clarisse, how's it going? And I was taken aback like Oh my gosh, I felt weird because he'd already pronounced my name properly the first couple times, and now he was calling me something different, so I didn't know what to say. But then every subsequent time I didn't say anything, and every time I walked in there, I had this anxiety about Oh my God, he's going to say my name wrong, and he would be so happy to see me, they would call me Clarisse! Hey, how's it going today? 

And then the other people that worked there knew my name. And so it became the situation where they knew I wasn't saying anything to him, and he was calling me the wrong name. And I just started going to another cafe because I couldn't deal with it. And I just felt so bad, you know, after, like, a couple months, I went back there and he had my name correctly, but it was just... He knew that I hadn't said anything. I was just like, Oh, my gosh, this is like, so embarrassing. I’m an adult. I should know better than this. And the lesson is, you just have to really deal with this thing right away, because otherwise it becomes something so much bigger, that you have to now circumvent your regular habits to deal with this situation, and it just takes up more of your life. So much better to make a joke about it and handle it right away. 

Mindy: Absolutely. And I'm really glad you bring names and confusing people or their names up because that's a problem that continues like into adult life, and it is kind of a difficult one to handle. I know that as a fellow author, when I'm doing signings, I'll have a face coming through the line. And because I worked at a high school for almost 15 years, I have, you know, 15 years worth of students out there that all expect me to remember their name, right? And it's like I don't. I simply don't. I found a little trick. 

Fellow authors, if you are involved in that type of situation, especially if you're a teacher or worked with the public in some way, when I have a kid come through that I know (of course they're adults now), but if I have one come through and it's like I know I know this person and I know they were student, but I cannot remember their name. And of course I'm personalizing a book for them. I look up and I say, Hey, it's so great to see you again. Remind me what's your last name? And they'll tell me their last name. And most of the time my memory can fill in their first name. What’s bad is when they're like it's Miller and I'm like, Okay, yeah, I can't fill in that one, right? And I'll just be like, Okay, so then the other resort that I go to is, “remind me how to spell your first name.” 

Because especially with a name like Rebecca or Mallia or Michaela is one - there's so many different ways that I can get away with that. But I did have an incident just like a month ago, and it was actually one of the organizer's that I had been in contact with for a couple of months, getting the event set up. Her name had simply slipped my mind once she came through the line to have her book signed. And I was like, Okay, like, remind me how to spell your name. Just so I know, I get it right And she said, Oh, it's Peg. And I was just like, Yeah, of course it is. Of course it's Peg, you dumb ass, Mindy. I was just like, Okay,  I didn't know if you wanted it to be Peggy or, you know, whatever she's like. No, I go by Peg and I'm like, “Okay, good job! Good recovery keep going.” But like as an adult with these things don't stop. Like you can still have these situations happen as an adult.

Charise: Obviously, my story illustrates you're not any better at dealing with it. It happens to everybody, but the great thing about embarrassment is that it is something everybody shares. stories from embarrassing moments. It's a great way to connect with people. I think it's a great icebreaker. If everybody shares an embarrassing story, suddenly you're right there with the people who have similar stories to share, and it just makes us feel like, Okay, we're all human. We're all dealing with this. 

And I went to a dinner party and it was a bunch of families that didn't know each other. A bunch of ranges of kids that were, you know, teenagers and younger and we were all asked to write on the card our embarrassing story that we wanted to share with the group. But as we went through, I mean, the kids were just so excited about sharing their embarrassment stories and my kids said stuff that I didn't even know what happened to them, you know, just like amazing. It's really something that people want to talk about, but there's no way to talk about it unless you call it out. 

Mindy: Absolutely. And I think another lesson here, too, especially for kids. And I know that sometimes it's really hard if your a parent to get your kid to realize that you were their age once too. And I think maybe sharing your own stories is a wonderful way to help your own biological children, or perhaps if you work with kids in some capacities or either as an author, a writer, a teacher, a library in whatever the case may be, it helps to see --  you know you'll be okay. You'll remember this and one day you will laugh about it. 

I remember my senior year, so this would have been late nineties. The National Honor Society was invited on a trip to D. C. And we had a really cool schedule, and we actually got to go in the Pentagon. Of course, this was all pre 911 and we were able to go into the Pentagon because one of our students’ uncles worked there, so we got to tour the Pentagon and we were waiting to get security clearance so that we could go in and there was an entire West Point cadets class waiting for the same thing. And of course, they're all like at attention and wearing their uniforms and looking, you know, they're all, like, basically our age and mostly male, very attractive. 

One of my best friends walked over to say something to me, and, of course, we're in civilian clothes, and we have been asked to dress up to visit the Pentagon. So she's wearing a dress and a skirt and she trips over someone's book bag and just face first down in the hall in the Pentagon, in front of an entire class of West Point cadets. And her skirt flies up, you know, underwear up in the air, everything. And of course, we were like, Oh my God, we all help her back up. And she I mean, she wanted to die. Her face was so red, like she had to cry like it was horrible. Meanwhile, all these West Point cadets are trying so hard to keep their faces straight because, like they're at attention. She can laugh about it now. She could laugh about it now, but it took some time, right?

Charise:  Absolutely. And actually, when I was doing some research for this book, they've done some experiments that there is sort of this innate desire for people to laugh at somebody falling down. That's kind of hard wired. It's not out of menace or it's not out of trying to punish the person that fell down. It's just something that's that's absolutely hardwired in our system. People falling down is, I guess we have to say it's funny and unfortunately, not funny for the person that fell. And when that happens to you and that obviously happened to me, I mean, it is, and I blush to, like, incredibly, at the slightest thing. Um, it's really hard to deal with, and so one of the ways that you can sort of try to get your mind off of it - because what your mind is doing is replaying this loop of what just happened over and over again. 

Try to think of something else, and the way to do that is to have something to go to already. If I'm gonna be embarrassed, I'm going to count down from 10 to 1, 15 times in a row and so that you already know before you ever get embarrassed, that's where you're going. And I have a stupid little poem that I say to myself. So if I'm trying to get my mind off of that loop once you're not thinking about that continuously, you can help yourself sort of breathe more regular and get yourself calmed down. But unless you prepare yourself before it happens in that moment, you can't find a place to go to. 

You know, even if you think I'm never gonna be embarrassed, just think. If I was embarrassed, what should I do? Maybe I'll say that silly poem I know. Or maybe I'll do the lyrics to that song. Try to say them really slowly or I'll do some counting just so that you could maybe click into it if it happens to you. And I think that it is nice to have something in your hand that you can hold onto as a safety, you know, if you get in trouble. 

Mindy: I think that's fascinating what you were saying about the knee jerk reaction to laugh when someone falls down. Can you tell us about any more any kind of research that you did for this book then? Because I am, I am fascinated at some of the different kinds of less well known areas that you ventured into in order to write this book.

Charise: I tried to just research embarrassment, and in general, one of the most interesting things I came across was when I talked this clinical therapist, and I didn't know this, she said - Embarrassment is something you do to yourself. What do you mean by that? I mean, No. It's something that happens to me and she said, No, you decide to be embarrassed. I'm not saying it's your fault, but it's your choice to be embarrassed. And it is a social construct to have people be embarrassed, because what happens is we are part of the social community, and as middle schoolers or kids in school, they are part of a smaller social community, and within that community there's peer pressure to behave in a certain way. 

And so scientists said that we're hardwired to conform to that peer pressure because we want to stay as part of that society and our innate desire to not be embarrassed and to not step out of what we're supposed to do keeps us in that social environment. And so knowing that, you sort of feel like, well, you're not really thinking about, Should I be doing this, or should I be doing that? You are, in a sense, hardwired to behave in a certain way based on the social community, you’re part of, and that keeps us behaving as citizens of the world and in our communities. If you're in middle school, you have the way you act at school and then you have the way you act at home and then you have the way you act in a broader community of where you live, and then you have the way you act in your town and then just keeps going and going, and all these add elements to the way you behave. I found that really interesting, that biological reason to behave in a certain way, and the outcome of that is that we have social systems that work and that we're not constantly having To inform people that they're misbehaving because we're hardwired ourselves to behave appropriately.

Mindy: Our social contracts that we have with one another are a very interesting system construct if you, when you look into it some of the codified methods of behavior and interaction that we don't realize that we are actively participating in yet we are every day. One other thing that I want to ask you about that I think, is really interesting and useful both for young teens and young adults and adults. Are there any methods in this book about how to help someone else with an embarrassing moment? Because I know I myself really as a teen and and especially as a middle grader. I was just fairly mortified all the time, like constantly worried about looking dumb or saying the wrong thing. And just over the course of maturation I kind of moved past that, of course, not entirely. As you know, I just told you about a story last month where I had an embarrassing moment, but I've just kind of learned To let him slide. They're gonna happen. I'm sure that I will mess up amazingly again soon, more than likely, but I find myself, because I have reached a point where I'm more comfortable with my own social gaffes that when I see someone else like struggling or if I see him, someone having a bad moment, I always find a way to make them feel better. Try to like, usually by denigrating myself. 

I go to the gym a lot, but I didn't used to. And I remember coming into the gym, not knowing the people there, not knowing the social network there and not being able to do a pull up. Sometimes, if a pull up is part of the workout in the class, it's really embarrassing to be the person that raises your hand and says, I can't do that. Can I have a substitute movement? And so when I see someone kind of blanche, when they see a pull up in the workout, I'll just kind of walk out and be like, Hey, or you know, you're worried about the pull ups or don't feel bad. It took me five years before I could do even one and, you know, give them a substitute movement. So do you have any tips or tricks for especially middle graders about how to help others when they have their own moments of struggle? 

Charise: What you just said, I think you have to share something that happened to you, too, or you know, it's like it's not so bad. It's the time, you know, I fell down too and that's really what this book is about. It's about sharing your story, to make others feel better, because there is no real trick to help somebody instantly feel better. The biggest power we have is to share our own story and by sharing our own story, they're not alone anymore. Not being alone. There are tips to like, you know how to calm yourself down if you're blushing and how to try to get your heart rate back to normal and things like that. But I feel like in an embarrassing moment. The biggest thing is that inner voice in your head that it's saying that this is the worst thing that has ever happened. That is a normal feeling, and at that moment everybody feels that feeling. 

But this is actually what's going on. And the truth is, people don't care about you as much as you think they do, in the sense that they’re not thinking about you every moment of the day, it's not like they're talking about you every moment of the day. I mean with social media you think they might be, but it's not. People don't care about other people as much as or the mistakes that other people make, as much as the person who made the mistake is thinking that they do. In your mind, you can create these stories that are so much bigger than what actually happened. And certainly in middle school that can happen to exponential amounts. But the truth is that people aren't spending their whole day talking about the time you tripped in the hallway. To you, It's gonna last for days. That's the big difference in who's looking, and I Think sharing is really the strongest weapon we have against embarrassment.

Mindy: I love your point, too, about being uber aware of your own situation and not necessarily realizing that it isn't as prevalent to everyone else. I had author Matt Haig on the show a couple of weeks ago. He is a British novelist, and he has written multiple fiction but also some nonfiction, and one of his books called Notes on a Nervous Planet is all about anxiety of modern life, and he has a wonderful line in there that I just highlighted because I loved it so much and he said, Don't worry about what you look like. Other people don't care. They're worried about what they look like. Absolutely. I'm 40 years old and I read that line and I was like, I never thought of that before. 

You know, I want to bring up something that you just mentioned. We've been talking about embarrassing moments in real life and in front of people. But what about those embarrassing moments on social media, which obviously is a huge area of concern, especially for teenagers today, right?

Charise: I purposefully didn't delve into social media that much because I don't have the knowledge. But one thing I did talk about in the book waas, especially on Instagram, the prevalence of likes and how you like something research on that when you get A like you have this shot of dopamine going into your system, that is like, Oh, this a positive thing. It's like addicting, having a little hit of chocolate or something. And so you become addicted to, You know the pings on your phone saying that people like you. But the interesting part of that is that they've done some studies, the exact same image on Instagram from what would be a random person that nobody knew if the image had already amassed, you know, in excess of like 1000 likes versus an image that only had five likes people were more likely to like the image that already had 1000 likes 

They don't know who the person is. They are just going to go with what everybody else liked. We are part of that social construct again. We're trying to be like everybody else. A lot of that is people just seeing other people liking it, so they like it, too. And it doesn't mean that they really like it. It just means that, okay, I want to be part of the group. So I'm gonna click it. That's interesting in that you cannot define yourself by how popular are are on social media, because there's so many elements that are playing into it that you have absolutely no control over absolutely so.

Mindy: Very true. And it really does lend way too much power to social media which already has more than it needs in our lives. Yeah, for sure. I just want to add that again, The book is called So Embarrassing: Awkward Moments and How to Get Through Them. It releases November 10th. It is a graphic novel for middle grade readers. And would you like to let our listeners know where people can find you online? 

Charise: Absolutely. They confined me at my name, which is Charice Harper dot com, And that's my website, and there's links to everything on there, and I'm on Instagram and Facebook. Not so much, but I hope that kids enjoy it. I really do. I think if I read this book when I was a kid, I feel like that would have been somewhat helpful. So That's my push. 

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at  Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.

Richard Osman Talks Promotion When Crossing Over From Television to Publishing

Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

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Mindy:   So your new book, The Thursday Murder Club is a murder mystery that features elderly protagonists, and it's really interesting and a fun take. So can you tell us a little bit about where this idea came from and how you decided to flush it out? 

Richard: Yeah, absolutely. It came from, real life. I've been a writer for my whole life. I've never written a novel. And I kept thinking, I must do one, I must do one and a couple of years ago I went to a retirement community in England. A really, really peaceful place in the middle of nowhere. But, you know, lovely sort of surrounded by kind of ancient Woodland. I mean, it's lovely. Rolling green Hills and lakes and all this stuff.

And like any good crime reader,  I took one look around at and thought, This would be a good place for a murder. But you know what I mean? With the bird song and you know, the quiet. Then we went for lunch at this place and it's this community, you have to be 70 to live there, but it's incredibly, it was an incredibly social place. 

And as I started talking to people, and you know, chatting about their life stories, what they'd done before, all this kind of stuff, I thought, wow, if there was a murder here, then I bet you lot could solve it. And a bet one of you would have done it as well. Those were the types of people. And then I was looking at a notice board and they had things like incredible social life at this place. 

And they had like Tuesday French club and Wednesday knitting club. And just the thought Thursday murder club came into my head. And I had just this thought of four people in their seventies. Once a week, they meet up to look over old unsolved police cases, essentially. It's an excuse to sit down, have a couple of bottles of wine, you know, have a gossip, have a chat and look out over old police files. 

And then there's a real murder in their community. And the four of them all in their seventies decide they'll be the ones to investigate and solve it. And the book is essentially, it's about the mystery about what happens, but it's also about how on earth four people in their seventies can get themselves to the heart of a police investigation and can solve this murder. 

And this idea of them being so overlooked and underestimated and people thinking they're so harmless that actually they can sort of get away with whatever they, whatever they want. And that's the, that's the kind of basic premise, as soon as I had those. There's a murder in this beautiful place. We've got these four people they're in a club. I literally that night, started writing. 

Mindy: Yeah, I love it. And actually, as you were explaining it, I thought to myself, well, of course, I mean, that makes perfect sense. It takes so much time and mental effort. Who has all the time to sit around and try to solve old cases, let alone a new one and just like, Whoa, retired people. Yeah, that makes sense.

Richard: Well, what I thought. Once I went, I went there. It's like being on a college campus where everyone's over seventy. So everyone's hanging out and there's lots of gossip and politics, but yeah, no one's got any work to do. No, one's got any assignments to hand in. So they've got a lot of time on their hands, and you know, murder and investigating murder is sort of the, is the perfect thing, but also the skills they bring to it. 

Because, you know, the four members of the club, have very, very different backgrounds. So at the heart of this, it's got these sort of unlikely friendships. One was a nurse, one's a psychiatrist. One was a labor activist. And one, we're never quite sure what she does, Elizabeth, but it's clear that she was very high up in the MI6 and that she was a spy. And is able to bring some of her past life to bear. But they've all got such different skills. 

And as you say that you get to 70 odd and you've got a lot of experience of life and you know, a lot of things. You know an awful lot about human nature as well. And so, it felt to me like as soon as I started writing it, I thought, well, of course, these are the perfect detectives, you know? Time on their hands, experience of life. Everybody overlooks them anyway, and it's such a joy to write them. And so far in the UK, at least it's been a joy for people to read, which has been thrilling.

Mindy: That's wonderful. You know, I remember reading not so long ago, a news article about a program where they were teaching young people, teens who wanted to learn English as a second language, they were having Skype, like weekly Skype conversations with elderly people in nursing homes. Because these people are dying for someone to talk to and for the interaction and these students simply just want to be immersed in the English language.

Richard: There's an epidemic of loneliness amongst the older people. We all kind of know that and I think it's something that's going to be, you know, addressed in the next few years because I think people have worked it out. And when I went to that community, I genuinely thought, well, this is how we should all live. You know, it was so communal and obviously you shut your front door, you don't have to see anyone. But if you want to, you can sort of go out and there's communal facilities and all of this and everyone who reads the book, just says, well, how old do you have to be to live here? Because I want in.  Because you know, it's such a nice place. And it's just a, you know, you've got, there's such a great group of people.

It's incredibly social and everybody is, I'm having to keep secret, the real place where it is because I promised the residents, the real residents there, that I wouldn’t. Because they're all quite, there are no fools over there. They’re lawyers and all sorts of stuff there. So they sort of know, especially over here it’s been such a huge sensation. They know there’ll be tourists. I'm having, I'm having to keep it a closely guarded secret.  

Mindy: Speaking of the communal aspect of the highly social aspect of the-- Do they call them nursing homes in Britain? Or is there another word? 

Richard: Well, there are such things as nursing homes, but this is a much bigger thing. This is a whole retirement community. So it's entirely independent. It's entirely sort of, I mean, there's a nursing home on site as well for when people are incapacitated. And one of the characters who was previously in The Thursday Murder Club is, essentially in a coma in the nursing home at the same facility. But yeah, so this, this would be a retirement community, I think. 

Mindy: Okay. So I've heard for a long time through friends that work in the nursing community and also just as a kind of a common thing that people either assume or know to be a fact is that there's actually a lot of sexual activity among the elderly in these communal living situations. And I thought that was, I thought that would always be something interesting to kind of visit in a fictional story.

Richard: I don't shy away from it. I mean, in, in the same way that the murders happen off camera in this story. So does that, but Joyce who's on main narrator who used to be the nurse, is a widow, but she has always got her eye out for the next guy. She has a, has a sort of affair in the book that that's, I think is quite interesting, but you know, she clearly has lost none of her libido, none of her romantic libido either. And the two guys in the, in The Thursday Murder Club Ron, the labor activist and Ibrahim, a psychiatrist, they do have a long conversation about their physical capabilities, were they to be in a romantic relationship. 

And they both admit that, listen, it would be harder these days. And it was a, and Ron says, honestly, it's a huge relief. It gives me so much free time now I'm not constantly, and I'm not constantly thinking about it. Yeah, constantly worried about is this actually, there's a real freedom to it.

My starting point for the whole thing was these people are in their seventies, but, I mean, they have  - there's zero difference between them and someone in their fifties or thirties or twenties. The brain is the same. The desires are the same. The appetites are the same, you know, you just, you just are in grief a bit more and pain a bit more. And you know, you, you understand mortality a bit more and there's physical issues, but you know, the fun of it is writing them, like I know they are, which is just as 23 year olds in 75 year old bodies. 

Mindy: Absolutely. And I'm so glad that you address that aspect because as I had said, I'd always heard that there was as much if not more sexual activity going on. And so I'm, I'm really glad to hear it. That sounds great -- Solve murders, have sex. 

Richard: By the way, great name for another podcast. Solve murders, have sex. 

Mindy: That one, that one might catch a little faster.

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Mindy: So you've mentioned a couple of times. I know you've had just fantastic reception in the UK with the book. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Richard: Obviously when it's my first novel and people here know me a bit, cause I do various TV shows, but it's not some, you know, I'm not known as a novelist. This is my first one. And so  we were sort of quite hopeful. We thought it'll, you know, but at least people will hear about it. Which is good. That's something. But yeah, I think in it’s first three weeks we've sold 200,000 copies or something, which is completely unprecedented over here. It's been number one in the independent book charts on Amazon and the Sunday Times. So all of that, which has been, has gone absolutely beyond the wildest dreams. 

I think that, firstly, it's, it's a mystery, you know, and we love that. It's like Agatha Christie type mystery. But secondly, You know, in this very bizarre year, we're having, you know, it's a book -- and honestly it was written before the pandemic or anything like that -- but it's, but it's the book that comes, that has a lot of humor in it that will make you laugh. It's a book that has the one that you cry as well. But, but it sort of has a, has a, has an overall feeling of warmth and friendship and kindness and some terrible stuff is happening. But it comes from my central standpoint to life, which is a standpoint of kindness and friendship. 

And we’re all told these days that everyone's at each other's throats and, you know, the social media tells us we're all competition. Actually in our daily lives. I don't believe that's the case, you know? And I think actually the real world has more companionship and community, than Certain people would like us to believe 

And that's where the book comes from. I think that's why people have really responded to it, you know? And that's why people have read it and recommended it and said, this has made us feel better. And, you know, I think it's, I think it's a combination of things. 

Mindy: I think that's absolutely true. I was actually having a conversation with my agent yesterday about where to go next and what kind of projects we were going to be pitching. And that was something that has come up like repeatedly, speaking with my other author friends, about what's in and what do people want right now? And it just keeps coming up. People want light reads. People want humor. People want to escape where we are. 

Richard: It’s so interesting though, isn't it? Because you know, more than anyone, it's all very well saying what I should do today, but, you know, by the time a book is written and it comes out, it’s two years later.

And so I was right when I was writing, it was all the big sort of psychological, thrillery kind of unreliable narrator type books. And I just sat down and wrote the book that I would have written at any stage, I think. But it's, you know, and people would say, you know, in my other life of TV, you know, every couple of years, you know, you have A Great British Bake Off or a show like that, or Dancing With The Stars and people go, Oh, is there a trend now for, for, for really sort of lovely, kind friendly Telly and you go, yeah that trend is always there. Yeah. You're never going to, if you make a decent show that is about decent human beings being decent to each other, and it's a good show you're always going to do well. That never goes out of fashion. 

Obviously when you're writing, you're thinking oh God, what is this like? What other books is this like and those, all kinds of things. Cause I'm not entirely sure I can work at, you know, this isn't an Ian Rankin book, but you know, he's such a genius that, you know, I, I can't be him. and so you just have to trust the voice don't you? You just have to trust the process. And I think it came out at a good time as well. I think we've been lucky in that regard. 

Mindy: Yeah, absolutely. Fortune favored you. And I think too, you're right. I mean, obviously you can't ever write to a trend if you're going to be working in traditional publishing because you're working 18 months to two years ahead of time. The indie world and the self pub world, they're a little more limber on their feet and they're able to respond more immediately to trends, but yeah, you're totally right. If you're going the trad route, you just have to write the book of your heart. You have to write what's there. 

Richard: You know, there's a lot of girls on the trains after Girl On the Train, but, you know, Girl On the Train, wasn't written to follow a trend, if that makes sense. Sometimes, sometimes you have to set that trend, but yeah, that's self published world is interesting and I'm fascinated with it as well. Because, you know, from my world of telly, which is very, very fast turnaround. Really, you know, if we, if we have an idea, we can be filming it a month later and it can be on air three months later.

And going into the world of publishing, the thing that I've noticed is a very, very, very long, lead time and very long PR and publicity. And so you must be in a world where the people can get stuff out much quicker. 

Mindy: I am traditionally published, but I have friends that work in, that are hybrid or strictly Indie self pub. So they have that mobility. I am still operating in the traditional world. When I talked to my agent about like, what's next? What are we doing next? It's more about in terms of, What is the next like, are we going to shift in my career, more about marketing and branding? Not necessarily about like, what can we respond to this right now? 

Richard: But when you're talking to your friends who are, either hybrid or, or, you know, in, in, entirely in this new world, is there a jealousy at all or not a jealousy, but is there a kind of, some of your mood -  I'd love to be able to move this quickly, this mobile. 

Mindy: Absolutely. There are so many benefits to going that route. I mean, if you're good at marketing, you're good at self promotion and you can understand how, how to optimize like SEO and ads, which are what's tricky. Like me getting the visibility is what hurts. If you can do that and be a good writer. I do think that it is an absolutely valued way to do your business. 

Also, one of the things that actually I find myself the most jealous about, as opposed from a trad to myself, pub friends, is that they have immediate and automatic feedback on what is working and what isn't. 

Richard: Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating because lots of it is kind of online e based and computer based.And so people are immediately telling them. What they think and what they want for the next one. And that kind of feedback loop just it's very loud because traditional publishers, again, it's different because it, because it feels like, a lot of the, a lot of the clothes that it's wearing are the clothes of the last century. That somebody, one of these sides, if one of these sides really does the proper lessons of the other side, then someone's going to come up with a hybrid that blows everything out of the water with that. 

Mindy: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, no, I agree entirely. And I've been in publishing. I've been publishing since, well, let's see like eight, nine years now. And I can tell you one of the things that frustrates me most is when I'm speaking with someone that is not in the industry, someone that knows nothing about the publishing world or even the entertainment and media world. And they say and my book came out like on Tuesday and on Friday. They're like, so how's the book doing? 

You know, because you've hit like high levels where you're getting that reporting right away. I am, you know, not going to sell 200,000 copies in a week. So I don't have those numbers. I don't have them for about six months. And so when someone says, how's the book selling, I have to literally say, I don't know. That seems very archaic. 

Richard:   And the economics of these self publishers as well, are they taking any upfront money or are they literally, are they literally getting it hosted and then taking a much bigger percentage of each sale than you might do in a traditional publishing group?

Mindy: Yes, absolutely. A much bigger, much bigger chunk of it, the sales and immediate feedback on your ads and the promos that you do, and, you know, what's working There is some upfront cost like you, you typically, you're going to want to buy software to do your internal design. And usually you're going to pay someone to do your cover. If you're smart, you're going to get a copy editor that's going to make sure everything's clean. But I mean, there is upfront like you're, you're probably looking at, if you're going to launch something and really be aggressive, you could put in three to five grand just to get yourself out there and it may or may not pay off.

And that is where, that is where you don't know. And that's why I do enjoy my traditional publishing little, you know, feather lined cradle, where I get an advance. And I get that advance whether the book dies on the vine or not. 

Richard: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, there's an awful lot to be said for it, isn't there? I really, really admire people who do that self-publish thing and they were their own marketers and stuff like that. Because the other thing that strikes me in, in this one, I mean, for you, I'm a TV producer, Really. And so I understand telly and marketing and PR and stuff like that. 

You know, I, I will make sure, I'm really proud of the book. I'm really proud of The Thursday Murder Club. So I feel like it's something I want to sell. So I know what TV shows to go on and how to be on those shows and how to sell them, what the optimum way of using social media and stuff like that is, and I've been amazed by how many authors don't really think that that's their job. 

Mindy: Yep. 

Richard: Which I understand because, because there's obviously. You know, there's the introvert thing and the artist thing, but it feels like that you said it probably has to be one's job. 

Mindy: Yeah. If you want to succeed, you have to, because there are plenty of aspiring authors out there that will be willing to figure it out and to do that heavy lifting. 

Richard: Hmm. I mean, it all comes to the good news is I think anyway, I mean, you tell me if I'm wrong. It feels like it all, you have to have a good product. I mean, there's no, there's no shortcut there. You know, you have to have something that people love to read. But if you've got that, then I feel like it's... 

I mean, I've been doing lots of, in the last few weeks, I've been going to lots of independent bookshops in the UK who've done such an amazing job in the pandemic, you know, and you know, it's such a heart of their community. And the fact that I'm going to all those places, and then I'm doing TV and talking about those places, they're saying, look, this is just great.

Cause that’s bringing people into the stops and then they're buying this book and that book, and the industry is a selling industry. And that's us, and it's the booksellers. And, and it feels like, it feels like people don't quite understand that they're in an industry where there are products and they need to shift some units, for everybody's good.

Mindy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It is very true. And I know a lot of, especially aspiring authors, most of the people that have had a long enough tail in the industry, the reason why they're there is because they figured that out. But when I'm talking to younger writers or new writers or people that are just interested in getting into the industry they're looking at, but how much of my own promotion do I have to do? Well, as much as you possibly can, if you would like to succeed. And that's just, that's just the way it is. We are no longer, writers are no longer living at the top of an ivory tower and casting our pages out to the masses. 

Like it doesn't work anymore. No, one's going to be standing there waiting for you to drop them so they can catch them. Like you gotta go out there and get people's attention. And I understand that that doesn't necessarily fit with everyone's personality, but the truth is that in the new tech world of media, like I have been around people that don't like to use microphones. And I'm like, well, you know, we're speaking to an audience, so you're going to have to talk into the microphone.

Richard: Yeah. There's a lot of tricks in that, but it's interesting, because the one thing you would think that would unite all writers. Is they’re good with narrative. They're good with stories. They’re good with empathy. And to me, selling has always, it's been about that. It's all, it's all it is, is narrative and empathy. 

And you know, so maybe it's the way it's presented to people. I think people don't like the idea that they're showing off or that they're saying, I'm great. And I sort of think that, it isn't that it's, are you proud of your book,  and if you are proud of your book, then, you know, it's the book that you need to talk about. Not you that you need to talk about. But it's some, I, I do get it and you know, it must be very, very hard if you're, you know, if you're… Cause I'm happy sitting for two years, writing a book by myself, but I'm also then happy to keep going out and talking about it. But I think some people are one mode or the other, right? 

Mindy: Yes, absolutely. I agree with you. I am a bit of a unicorn myself in that same manner that I could be alone for three months and I'd be fine. And you can put me in front of 2000 people to speak and it doesn't bother me. Like I, in fact I enjoy it. I love it. I get energy from them and it's a, it's a feedback loop of me loving them and them loving me or hating me either way. I mean, they can hate me. That's still energy. Yeah. So, I mean, whichever way it goes.

But I do know, and I have plenty of friends that are good at one and not the other and good, or  just medium at both. And just an effort if you just put an effort in there, I mean, chances are, you're going to reach someone. Someone is going to see you and something about you or your speech, how you speak, how you present and yourself, it will resonate with someone. And if it resonates with that one, someone it's a, you know, it's a pebble in the pool and those ripples are going to go out.

Richard: Yeah, I think, I think that's exactly right. And it's fascinating cause I do, I know that-- listen, the key thing here is let's talk about writing. Let's talk about our characters and, and all this stuff, but that's, that's the fascinating thing. Having worked in a creative industry, my whole life, the creative bit of this is the same, but the selling bit has been really, really, really, different. And so I find that, and it's lovely. I'm learning so much from my team over here. And a couple of them have said a couple of times, Oh it’s really interesting listening to you talking about the best way to use television or the best way to use social media. Perhaps we can do that next time, but it's, I love it. It's such a lovely industry. Everyone's been so supportive. Other writers, I’m just amazed by how incredibly kind everyone is to each other. Right? 

Mindy: Very much so. And I can tell you, that's not just a British thing. In the publishing industry, we have it's, it is uncommon to be in an industry where everyone is helpful and looking out for everyone else. But the truth is, especially in the publishing industry, we're not fighting for audiences. We're not trying to scoop other people's readers. We always say over here, That a rising tide raises all boats.

So like you're saying you're going into these indie book shops. People are going to come and see you, and then they're going to go browse and they're going to go pick up. I mean, very few people walk into a bookstore and buy one book. They're going to go in and they're going to find someone else. And they might find an author that they never would've come across. They may pick up a book and that author is benefiting from your success. And that continues to be true. 

Richard: Yeah, I don't think, I think publishing, but you know, television is interesting because as a unit, in terms of audiences, it's getting smaller and smaller, I mean, not crazily so. But publishing is not a zero sum game at all. And I've really, really noticed it is some crime fiction doesn't need any help for me over here at such a big genre. But the fact that I'm in this genre, I am, I can bring a slightly different audience into it from my TV stuff. And so I can, you know, I'm sort of doing interviews that you might not otherwise read, but talking about, you know, Ian Rankin and Val McDermid and people like people like this, you kind of see that.

Yeah. I love the, the rising tide raises all boats because it's exactly right. Isn't it?. And, and, you know, that's, it's, I just have been stunned right from the start about how supportive people are, how excited people are about someone else's success, you know, how great they are about, you know, everyone, if someone's in the top 10, everyone's tweeting about it and stuff like that.

And it seems so far. I've been in the industry for a short while, but it seems genuine. I could be wrong, but it seems genuine. 

Mindy: I believe it is. I really do. I've never had anyone knowingly resent my success and I think people, people are pretty open with their feelings. Right? Especially on Twitter. 

I've only got you for a couple more minutes. So why don't you tell the listeners where they can find your book? Now I'm in the US I do have international audiences, but when is the book releasing in the US? 

Richard: In the US it was out on the 22nd of September. So it's freely available now at all your usual online places, but also lots of, indie book shops. And what have you, I don't know, Barnes and Noble, then they do all the kind of, major US places. And hopefully, more and more as we go into Christmas And in terms of the rest of the world, I think was in, I think 30 territories now, I think we're in China and Russia and France and Germany. 

And obviously all that when you're publishing Britain that also covers Canada and Australia and all of that. So yeah, we're in loads and loads of places and it's a really English and British book, but I think that in that. Americans love British books. And Brits love American books, right? Because it's like the same, but different. 

I though,t writing this book and also because people know me in the UK, I thought, well, I can see how this might do well in the UK, but the second that, you know, France, buy it in Germany, buy it and Spain buy it. You're going to think. Okay. You sure? You know, they kind of read the birth and they don't mind that it's in England. They just like the characters and that's been, that's, that's something I hadn't predicted if I do a TV show sometimes they don't travel and with this, I sort of assumed it wouldn't travel, but I forget, but it's the power of story And the power of character. 

Mindy: Right.. It is.  I weirdly have a very large, Portuguese audience. Yeah. I mean of all things. And I'm just like, that's awesome. Very cool. So, you know, and I will, engage as much as I can. Of course I use Google translate and it, I'm sure it comes out like stilted and awkward, but they, they really appreciate that you’re trying. And so it's really cool. 

Richard: Yeah, that's amazing. And, and, and Portuguese audience, of course you can pivot fairly easily into Brazilian audience, which is hundreds of millions, right? 

Mindy: Yep. Exactly. So I'm not complaining. so again, the book is The Thursday Murder Club by Richard Osman. And why don't you let listeners know where they can find you online?

Richard: You can find me on Twitter at, at Richard Osman, and you'll find it’s very, very English, but there's a bit of fun. I talk about British TV, a lot and British and British sweets and candy and chocolate and stuff quite a lot. And on Instagram I am Mr. Osman on Instagram. But Twitter is my, is, is mainly where you'll find me.

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at  Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.