Lisa Gardner: Forensics Research Vs. Reality

Mindy: Today's guest is Lisa Gardner, a number one New York times bestselling thriller novelist and self-described research junkie. She has transformed her interest in police procedure and criminal minds into a streak of internationally acclaimed novels, published across 30 countries. She's also had four books, become TV, movies, and has made personal appearances on true TV and CNN. Lisa invites her readers to enter the annual, "Kill a friend, maim a buddy sweepstakes at lisagardner.com. Every year one lucky stiff is selected to meet a grand end in Lisa's latest novel, past winners have nominated spouses, best friends, and even themselves. Lisa joined me today to talk about her newest release. When You See Me, which combines three of her most loved characters and how heavily research plays into her process.

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Mindy: You are a New York times number one bestselling author. You've had a wonderful career. Your newest., When You See Me, will be out soon. So tell us about the new book. If it's a new space for you or if you're working some in the world you've already created.

Lisa: When You See Me, opens up with the discovery of skeleton remains off a major hiking trail in this secluded mountain town. A task force is sent to investigate and see what other clues can be learned. And find themselves stumbling upon something far, far worse than they ever imagined. Let's say stuff that sent me to the Body Farm to learn about mass graves. It quickly becomes clear, nothing in this charming little town is as it seems. And now the entire task force finds their lives in danger.

Mindy: So you mentioned the Body Farm, which I'm familiar with just as a person that has to do some slightly off center research themselves. So for listeners that don't know, the Body Farm is quite a few acres. I can't remember how many, but it's a very large area where more or less, for lack of a better way of phrasing it, they simply lay bodies out in different positions and in different weather conditions. And then they study the decomposition just so that they, in instances of a real crime such as Lisa's new book When You See Me is about, they can compare and contrast these different decomposition rates and learn more about time of death and situational effects of how these bodies decompose. So did you actually physically go then to the Body Farm?

Lisa: Yes. So the original body farm, kind of the quote unquote body farm is run by the University of Tennessee and it is their department of anthropology, forensic anthropology. And as you mentioned, um, the job starting back in the 1960s was to figure out time of death for skeletal remains. Um, up until that point we were using some thousand year old Chinese text that could only tell you time. They actually say times since the death of like plus or minus a couple of years, which if you can imagine the detective, it's like, do you have an alibi from 1968 to 1970? Very difficult to move forward in these cases. So as you described, it's called Deaths Acre. And yes, they have people who have donated their body to science or specifically to the body farm, the remains arrive and they arrange them in various, um, conditions to help start establishing what are the variables that affected decomp. When you watch CSI and they talk about blue flies and you know, we think its 12 hours since death based on the life cycle of the larvae. That is information and learned from the body farm.

Lisa: So I did go in person. Um, I think one of the coolest parts of being a suspense novelist is an excuse to do this kind of research to talk to people who have really amazing jobs. It's the most intimidating research I've ever done. I really am an everyday working mom. I never actually had seen a dead body outside a funeral home. It was daunting to walk amid, you know, so many human remains. And yes, there is the smell and insect activity and all of that stuff going on. And I really, what I found is everyone there conducted themselves with a great deal of reverence and appreciation for the people who donated their body so they could learn more and that helped offset and, um, keep me in the moment. So I didn't actually embarrass myself by, you know, vomiting at the body farm.

Mindy: I'm, I mean, I, I myself have never seen a, uh, a dead body in any type of decomposition. I really can't even imagine. That sounds, my immediate reaction is that I'm fascinated and jealous. But then the backup reaction is basically ugh.

Lisa: Yeah, it was very daunting. But I'm so grateful I did it because we certainly, I had a preconceived notion when I went to write When You See Me, I'm working to discover this, this grave, um, the bones are completely weathered, completely skeletal and I'm thinking that should, you know, will be immediately a hindrance to the taskforce. Well you go to places like the body farm, talk to real forensic anthropologists and I mean she basically could solve my cold case in like two pages. It's like, Oh well, okay. So it turns out, I mean it was amazing to me cause this is real life that, you know, from a single bone, the amount of information we could glean. You worry that people won't believe it in the novel. So working real people in the field, it's like, okay, um, well we need to remove this and we need to take away this and okay, if we juggle this variable... now it's much more challenging from a forensic perspective because I really do try very hard to make the police procedure, the forensics procedures in my suspense novels would be, it's real world as possible. You know, with the exception that in books we always get DNA back in like three hours.

Mindy: Yeah.

Lisa: Dot dot dot nine months later when the lab report came back.

Mindy: Right. It is true when you're working, especially with the procedural, but also in one of my books, there is a like a courtroom scene, it's sticking too close to reality. You need to make the reader believe it's possible. But at the same time it's very difficult to write them dramatically or have the big moments or the big reveal in any type of way that could actually happen in real life. I know that in my courtroom scenes, friends, lawyer friends, you know, I would ask them for feedback and they would send it back and they would say, it's great. It's wonderfully written. This would never happen in real life. You know, the prosecutor would have shut this down. But they're like, don't change it because if I were to help you make this realistic, it would be so boring,

Lisa: And I find that kind of stuff fascinating that give and take. So, for example, you know, when I was at the body farm and I'm learning how they would exhume skeleton remains. I mean in the real world, you're right, you know, like nine months, a year later they have it all exhumed and it's almost like an archeological book. But again, you know, we keep plausible what they find and what they could learn. But like you said, you kind of speed up the, the time it takes because real world policing is slow, tedious business. The legal system doesn't actually, you know, the wheels of justice have their own pace. And it's painfully slow for most of us.

Mindy: Absolutely. Especially when it comes just for waiting for results. And I yes, even from a medical perspective, if you're someone who's waiting for a blood test to come back or something like that, they're like, yes, you know, we'll let you know in two weeks. And it's like, Oh, okay. I mean I hope there's nothing really wrong with me.

Lisa: I think one of the joys of a good thriller novel, you know, is you're going to get that cliffhanger feeling, um, you know, page turning and you also get generally more answers than you get in the real world too. But I personally as a reader appreciate that.

Mindy: Oh, absolutely. And I appreciate it too. Just as a human moving through the world. I, a lot of the reason that I read and write in the genre that I do is because I need to see justice. I need to see it a little more quickly than I'm getting it in reality.

Lisa: Yes. One of the characters I've really loved that we see in When You See Me is Flora Dane. And she's a victim turned vigilante. I first wrote about her a few books ago. Meant to be, you know, its own standalone novel and she was once kidnapped and was held prisoner for 472 days. But she so grew on me. Um, she is a survivor. She's trying to find her way to the other side. She's broken, but she knows she's broken and full of jagged edges. I think that's so relatable and for her When You See Me was such a big book, because I wanted to try to start giving her answers to her questions. You know, who was this man who kidnapped her and did terrible things to her life and to her family? But I didn't know any of the answers. The way I write is, I kind of come up with this scenario, but I mean I have to show up each day to write, to find out what really is going on in the mountains. What are the terrible secrets in this town?

Mindy: It's so interesting that that is your process as someone that is an old hand at writing in the genre. I have found myself that people are often surprised when it comes to a thriller or a mystery that the author doesn't necessarily have a plan from the beginning. I know that I don't. I'm much like you. I start with something that I'm invested in or interested in and then I'm writing it myself to find out what happened. So if you could talk a little bit about your process, I think that'd be fascinating for my listeners that are also writers

Lisa: I'd like to come up with kind of an over the top crime. Something maybe pulled from the headlines like a spree shooting or uh, When You See Me has to do with a lot of the cold case investigations we're seeing now because of all the new advances. Then I go when I talk to experts and often that's cold calling. I can't say that I've ever reached a point in my career where you can call up, you know, like places like the body farm, like, Oh sure. Lisa Gardner, we read you all the time! I'm not sure these people read thrillers all the time.

Lisa: So you're always just starting from the beginning. I'm a novelist. I'd like to research. You learn the parameters. Um, sometimes there's a lot of hoops to jump through. Sometimes the body farm, it was coming up with a research project because they are an educational institution. Uh, and then learning just in the real world. What can you figure out from a crime scene? What kind of clues would you look for? What's the steps you would take and learning generally? Some fun stuff like, um, I learned about mass graves, which was not something I knew and was completely different than I had ever pictured. You know, cadaver dogs and just amazing scent skill they have at finding things you would just never imagine being found in the woods. And then all of that becomes, I don't know, it's like thrown into the giant hopper of my brain. Then comes the hard part. You sit down and I don't know how it is for you, but you kind of pray it all works itself out.

Mindy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You hope it coalesces into something significant. The best comparison I've ever heard, and I cannot remember who said this, but someone told me that they look at it as like a lint ball and they have just have a lint ball in their brain and little pieces of lint come in and they'll stick and some things stick onto those that are related to each other, continue to grow into a larger lint ball until you, you're ready to hit that point. Like you said, where you sit down and you try to transfer that lint ball into something that reveals, you know, structure and plot.

Lisa: I like that analogy very much. I often feel my brain could be, is nothing more than a giant bowl of lint.

Mindy: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I know, I don't know about you, but sometimes I find myself finding just one of those little pieces of lint, a little factoid or something that I find interesting and then I'll be writing and I'll be like, Oh, I'm going to slip that in there. And then I think, wait, did I already do that? Have I used this before in a book? And I have to actually go back and check my other work. So I make sure I'm not hitting something because I know what I'm interested in. I know what I find fascinating, but I don't want to hit my readers over the head with something that I already showed them.

Lisa: And I have to say I've done two things with the body farm. So you're right, I had one book that, well you don't want to be too repetitious, but also some of the procedures have changed and gotten, you know, new and improved all the time, so it was also updating my knowledge. But I dunno, I, I will admit I'm the biggest, I don't know, like forensic junkie, people who do that kind of work and the things in real life you can do, you can learn. It's just amazing.

Mindy: it is. It truly is. So you mentioned Flora Dane When You See Me is the 11th book in the detective DD Warren series. You'e combining three of your most beloved characters, obviously DD Warren but Flora Dane and also Kimberly Quincy. So you're bringing in three of your characters from your previous titles, putting them together in this new situation. So is that something that you said to yourself, Hey, I know, wouldn't it be fun to stick these three people together and you started from that or did you begin with the concept and then think, Oh, this is a great situation for Flora to be a part of because this will expand her story more? Was it intentional from the beginning to combine the three or did it come about more organically?

Lisa: Actually, in this case it was intentional, which is always interesting for me because I joke, I'm the world's biggest non-series, series author. Each book is a standalone plot and you don't need to have ever read any of the other books to understand them just fine. But the truth is I'm dealing with all these criminal scenarios, these homicide cases where, Oh it would be logical for the FBI to investigate this and Hey, and this one book had this FBI agent. Readers ask me about her all the time. So why not use her? Or this would be a city urban policing case and I have this Boston cop that readers really like, why not use her? And in this case it was like, you know, now you have people on social media, you know, I'm #TeamKimberly or #TeamDD or #TeamFlora. Why make them pick? Basically big crimes and task forces are used a lot these days. What about the right scenario, weave them all into the book and really it was so much fun. You have like three, you know, really strong kick ass female investigators, but they have very different styles and you know how to mix them. What are the pros and cons of three alpha women trying to do something together? That was a really fun dynamic for me to write.

Mindy: Continuing in this vein of the female detective and having a series that is about some violent crimes and it's something that has come up before in the thriller and mystery genre about how violence against women is portrayed and having women investigating those. And then of course you yourself being a female writing it. I personally have never come across yet, I should say - yes, it's early days - but, any type of scenario where I was approached by someone who questioned my ability or my, I guess temperament in handling these more difficult scenes.

Lisa: I think there's been a lot of changes in the suspense genre. When I first started out, you know, back in the 80s that was, you know, Thomas Harris, Silence of the Lambs. It felt like every book was serial killers. All the time. And yeah, no, my first few suspense novels were sent back to me to explicitly make more graphic and violent. That's what readers wanted. I'm not sure I always agreed with that. You know, now we're in the day and age of the domestic, you know, danger is closer than you think. And it's interesting to me because I think domestic thrillers have long been in the realm, particularly of top female writers. I mean, if you think of Mary Higgins Clark, um, Agatha Christie, I mean they are the psychology of crime, uh, what it takes to solve crimes and what's it like to be a survivor, which I think is a big theme. And When You See Me particularly with both Flora Dane and this other character girl, I think that's something we do extraordinarily well. And what I like to focus on now, this point of the suspension genre versus, you know, previously the really graphic over the top serial killer du jour books.

Mindy: We do experience the world in a different way from men. When we walk outside, we're aware that we could be prey. Men don't necessarily have to live that way. So I've had situations where I had to stop and get gas and I had to stop and get gas somewhere, that was quite frankly a little bit sketchy and I was getting gas and I was filling up my car. I told the person I was dating at the time, I said, I just puffed myself up big like a bird on the nature channel.

Lisa: Yes. And that's a lot of the research I've done for Flora Dane. You're talking about a woman who was kidnapped and held hostage. The worst has happened to her. You're right. She goes through every minute now acutely aware of her vulnerability, and that crime is all around her. And it was really fun to research for her. Um, like everyday self-defense, you know, ways to be aware of your surroundings. Um, you know, Flora Dane's a type of woman, she gets trapped in a garage or a supply closet. She's going to figure out how to kill you with a straw or flower food. That was some really fun research to do, but very powerful to know as a woman traveling. These are steps you should take things to be aware of. One of the biggest defenses they think works for women is, are dogs. Dogs add an element an intruder can't control and you know, think twice. So I have three dogs and I tell you each one is bigger and fiercer than the last. I have a 16 year old Pomeranian right now. So it's a little bit embarrassing.

Mindy: Oh, well I uh, I have to agree with that. I also have a dog. He's a German, well, he's part German shepherd. He's a mutt. Um, so he looks like he's going to protect me right to the bitter end. But honestly he, if you step on his foot, he's, he'll cry, like literally cries like a baby. So we just, we go for looks over here.

Mindy: You were talking about just little things that women need to be aware of or some of us have already, you know, learned. I worked in a high school for a long time. I was a librarian for 14 years and I do substitute still in the district because I missed the kids. One point I ended up having a classroom that was just girls and I don't know how we got there, but I ended up just telling them things that are so simple that you can do that just drop your danger level. Don't jog with earbuds in. When you get in your car, lock it behind you. Immediately start the car. Don't fiddle with your music or check your messages or anything like that. Get in the car, lock it behind you, rolling your keys in your hands, having your phone ready to dial, like any of these things. Really easy steps anybody can do. You don't have to carry a weapon. You don't have to have a rape whistle, you don't have to have pepper spray. You can use some real small things. I can teach you right now

Lisa: And I think it's one of the reasons we love to read suspense. People like you and I are prone to writing suspense is, I think the other form of self-defense kind of what they call mental preparedness. We are looking for those little details. Yes, you can, you know, walk around with your car keys stuck between your fingers and that makes for an instant self-defense weapon or you know Flora Dane, who is small talks about, she doesn't want to punch anyone but you know the damage you can do with the heel of your hand, or elbow. I think all of that stuff makes the reading experience that much more exciting and that makes that research fun to do. I think there's also comfort in how much police can learn. I mean I think one of the big appeals when you listen to a podcast or watch true crime cases on TV or something like forensic, how good they've gotten at some of this stuff

Lisa: It's nice to have Flora Dane because you can, we can all learn about self defense but it's nice to have, you know, an FBI agent, Kimberly and detective Deedee Warren because they're also showing the newest investigative techniques, which means I'm getting to learn those two and the ways, you know, the police are just getting better and better all the time.

Mindy: Yup. Absolutely. Right. Yes, for sure.

Lisa: Again, really, really amazed at the body farm. Just how much they could learn from so little like it was just astounding to me and I'm like, it's getting really hard to get away with murder now.

Mindy: If I want to put somebody in danger, the first thing I have to do now is disable their phone.

Lisa: Yeah, true. I'm actually doing a teen that went missing now in Boston. That's the book I'm working on for next year and Oh my God. By the time I was done with the police, the amount of, especially in an urban environment like Boston, the amount of information they would have at their fingertips within like 45 minutes. I mean, to get someone to truly truly vanish, whether by choice or against their will is difficult. Extremely difficult. I'm kind of having fun trying to create a complicated enough knot that's also plausible. I love that challenge.

Mindy: As a human being, I'm comforted as a writer. I'm like, Oh man, how am I going to do this?

Lisa: If you're in a city at all big brother is always watching. Always I'm not completely sure what I think about that.

Mindy: I agree.

Lisa: It sounds like Mindy, both you and I will always have plenty of inspiration for our novels, right?

Mindy: Absolutely. Absolutely. Why don't you tell us where people can find, When You See Me online, it comes out January 28th and where they can find you online as well.

Lisa: When You See Me will be available any place books are sold, online retailers and bricks and mortar as we like to say, and you can follow me on my website and lisagardener.com. You can nominate the person at your choice to die in my next novel. I am on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook as Lisa Gardner BKS.

Michael Tougias On Adapting His Own Work For Younger Audiences

Mindy: Today’s guest is Michael Tougias, the author of many true rescue stories, including The Finest Hours, which was adapted into a Disney film. His latest, Into The Blizzard has been adapted for middle grade readers from his adult non-fiction book about the Blizzard of 1978. Michael joined me today to talk about the difference between seeking publication with fiction versus non-fiction, and the challenge of adapting his own work for a younger audience.

Mindy:             Much of my audience is comprised of aspiring authors and as a published nonfiction writer, it would be great if you could talk about the difference in the publication process when writing nonfiction. I know some things are similar and some things are different, such as writing a proposal versus writing a query. So if you could just talk a little bit about the process of nonfiction publishing and the attempt to acquire an agent with nonfiction and that process as it differs from fiction.

Michael:          I think the nonfiction is easier in terms of the proposal level and securing a publisher or agent. And the reason I say that is you don't need to have the whole book completed to land a contract. My proposals are usually about say five to six pages. That proposal alone with even just one or two sample chapters could be enough to land a contract. Whereas with fiction they're probably gonna want to see the entire book. If you're a brand new author, you're, you know, there's a lot more work going into it, not knowing what the final result will be. Proposal for nonfiction is pretty straight forward. I open up with the concept of the book, then I'll talk about the author's credentials. That doesn't mean you have to have a book published under your belt, but maybe you have expertise in this area or you've been working in the field or studying this particular topic.

Michael:          The nitty gritty gets down to the what I would call the meat of the proposal, where you're, you're describing usually in a chronological order of how this narrative nonfiction is going to flow. You're basically telling the story in a concise form. And finally I usually mentioned similar books and I think that's helpful because oftentimes the uh, editor or publisher will know some of the more popular similar books. And then you're explaining the similarities but also the differences. What makes your book unique. So in fact, I think nonfiction might be a little a little easier.

Mindy:             When you talk about your topics and you were saying when there are other books that have touched upon the topics that you're using as comp titles, you illustrate how yours is similar yet also different and is bringing something new to the table. For nonfiction writers, should they be looking to touch on topics that are of current debate that perhaps are... obviously like global warming would be a good one for the moment. Is it important to be touching on things that are topical at the moment or is it more important to try to focus on a topic that's going to be evergreen?

Michael:          I wouldn't get too hung up on trying to focus on the topic of the moment because you know, for example, many of my books are historical in nature. For example, I did a book Above and Beyond about some lesser known events during the Cuban missile crisis. At the very end of the proposal, I say this is topical because of the current tensions with Iran and North Korea, but that's really the gist of the book that just has these little known events that almost put us on the brink of war during the Cuban missile crisis. So yeah, I think you've got to follow your path. And in terms of what is it that you're bringing new to the table, whether it's history or whether it's another topic and not get too hung up on what's going on currently, because by the time your book gets published, what's current now, it would be totally out of date and out of vogue.

Mindy:             Yes, that's very true. So is it similar to a fiction publishing then in that if you're going the traditional route, it's going to take anywhere from 18 months to two years to move from manuscript to published finished product?

Michael:          Yes. Maybe a little shorter in some cases. Um, I just signed a contract for a memoir, which are very hard to get published because everybody wants to write those. But I've done one in the past, but they're kind of outdoor humor like Bill Bryson A Walk in the Woods. Mine was called, There's A Porcupine in my Outhouse. This recent deal was have the manuscript to them by this April and I actually just sent it off last night. So I was ahead of schedule and the book will be published the following April.

Mindy:             So let's talk about your newest release Into the Blizzard. It is geared toward a middle-grade audience. So why did you make the decision to move away from adult and put your foot into the middle grade realm?

Michael:          Well, a while back, probably four years ago, I was connected with Christy Ottaviano, one of the editors at Holt for middle reader books. And we did, uh, The Finest Hours as a middle reader book. Now that was my adult book that became a Disney movie. The Finest Hours is about the greatest coast guard rescue ever. You know, that was an easy sell to have that book turned into a middle reader. But I found that she and I worked so well together, editor and writer that I said, why don't we do a couple of my other adult books, adapt them for middle readers? And we've just been clicking on all cylinders. So that's how Into the Blizzard came about. That's the, that's the title for the young adult version of my adult book, which was titled Ten Hours Until Dawn, you know, same topic, but one is for adults,. Ten Hours is for adults and Into the Blizzard is for young adults.

Mindy:             And when you go about that adaptation, what are you looking for as the author of the original material? What are you looking to do with that to turn it into something that is more approachable for the middle grade reader, beyond a vocabulary, obviously. What is your approach? Are you changing structure or what are you looking at to say, how do I make this accessible to middle grade?

Michael:          Uh, you know, it's interesting. A lot of people think that, uh, the conversion process is a layup, but trust me it's not. It's a, it's a lot of work that's not really apparent in that probably the biggest step is the adult book might be say 70,000 words. Your middle reader book is going to be shorter, say 45,000 words and people think, Oh you just cut out parts of the book, but you can't do it that easy cause you're going to confuse the reader if you leave out one key component. So it's literally going through every sentence and saying, is there anything I can trim here without losing the readers focus and attention of the story? So you're going sentence by sentence and looking where you can trim and it's more labor intensive than I would have ever thought. You're simplifying some technical things for a middle reader, for example, Into the Blizzard takes place out on the ocean during the blizzard of 1978 so there are some nautical terms and not every middle reader will understand what they mean.

Michael:          So I might, you know, add a little bit of an explanation. I try to think back to when I was 12 years old, what kind of books did I like? And they were always the books that were fast paced. So that's, that's been my mantra. Make it fast paced. Again, a little more, uh, more work than I thought. But very rewarding when you, when you hear back from a, a teenager that says, you know, I'm not a big reader. I wasn't even looking forward to reading this book, but I read it in two nights and I'm like, wow,. That's what I hope, you know, just make it fast. Make them feel like they're on this boat. Caught in the blizzard, the storm of the century on the ocean.

Mindy:             I was not alive in 1978 but I would be there soon. And a lot of the familial legends that we have in my family is the blizzard. We talk about it all the time. I'm from the Midwest. I grew up in Ohio, I still live here. And the blizzard of 78 is a topic constantly. So when you're talking about choosing your topics yourself, whether for adult or middle grade, when you're, when you're adapting yourself, how do you find a topic? Like what as a nonfiction author makes you say, I know, let's do this next?

Michael:          That's a great question. And you know, having done seven books of that genre, you know, these true survival at sea stories, I'm constantly pitched ideas. When I go out and speak, someone will come up to me and say, Oh, I've got a survival at sea story for you. And within five minutes I know whether it's any good or not. Because what I find is most of the stories I hear would make a good magazine article but could never sustain a whole book. They don't have enough surprises. They don't go on long enough through a time period. Um, they're kind of cut and dry. I got in terrible trouble on the ocean, fell off the boat, was out there for hours, was rescued. So I'm looking for the more complex stories that will really surprise the reader with, with both the survival part of it, but also how did they get rescued?

Michael:          And oftentimes, uh, the rescues are just as exciting as the survivor's story. I did a book called A Storm Too Soon and that rescue takes place, 80 foot waves, one wave after another. It's on my website. What I found really compelling about A Storm Too Soon was even the rescue swimmer needed to be rescued. You know, once they dropped him down in the water to help with these survivors, he was overcome by these waves. So you could imagine the, the three people left in the helicopter going, Oh my God, now we can't even get our own guy back. So yeah, I'm looking for those twists, turns, surprises that'll carry a whole book. And I think, I think that rule of thumb would be good for other aspiring writers. Is that, is it a great magazine article or can it really carry a whole book of say 250 pages?

Mindy:             Yeah. And a lot of people don't understand cause the same thing happens to me as a writer when I'm out and I'm touring or if I'm having conversations even with people just in everyday life. And they'll say, well I have the idea for your next book. And I'm like, no actually I probably have the idea for my next book. But you know, tell me your story. And often it is like you're saying, it's just that it's a story.

Michael:          That's so true. I get pitched that all the time. And um, but you know what? Every say one out of 30 really is a fascinating story that I will begin to look into and then, you know, within a short period of time know if it's going to work or not.

Mindy:             I don't mind hearing people's stories at all. And sometimes there is something to them. But I think too, that very often you actually have to have that personal connection to the story in order for it to interest you. So oftentimes people say, you know, I have the best story. That's great for them. But sometimes it's only interesting if you know the people in the story or if you have a personal connection to it. And as a writer it is difficult sometimes to find those stories that are going to be more universal, that are going to pull in more than just the people who are already intimately connected to it. So how do you know as a nonfiction author when you've hit that gold mine of that universal story?

Michael:          For me, it's oftentimes an event that, uh, say it's, say it's a historical event that I'll go, Hey, I'm a big history buff, big history reader. But I had no idea that happened. For example, with Above and Beyond the Cuban missile crisis, I had no idea that the, the Soviet union shot down one of our pilots and killed them over Cuba. You know, people seem to know about Gary Powers shot down over Russia, but not this one. So I was like, wow, at that really surprised me and I want to learn more how that all happened and how that didn't lead to it all out war. I figured the reader is going to feel the same way. So it's, it's that element of surprise for me that, um, that I'm looking for. And the same with these, uh, true survival stories that I write as well. It's got to have that, that element of surprise going, wow, I can't, that seems to be off the charts in terms of how anyone could survive.

Mindy:             Yes. And survivor stories, they're thrilling simply because of the fact that we can see that humans are resilient and they can go through so much and come out the other side. And it also, I think, gives us hope and I think hope is something that we really need right now. And so survival stories I think are evergreen in so many ways, especially in dark times.

Michael:          Yes. And you know, just knowing that, say for example, uh, four young men and women from the coast guard will risk their lives going out for a total stranger who is in a life and death situation because they screwed up because of their own fault. And now you've got four young people putting their lives on the line to rescue them. So you're right, it has got that element that that we kind of need of hope and, but often times if I hear a story and I think maybe I could've survived that, I'll go, I don't want to write about it. I want to write about the ones that I go, I could have never made it.

Mindy:             Yes.

Michael:          I did a book, Fatal Forecast, where the, the vessel is hit by a hundred foot rogue wave. It's just a little 50 foot boat off Cape Cod and this a hundred foot rogue wave capsizes the boat and three of the four people inside are trapped and perish. But one, one guy gets out, his name's Ernie Hazzard and what he goes through in the next three days, and this is in late November in the North Atlantic, so you can only imagine. What he goes through was just off the charts. I mean the coast guard never dreamed they'd find them alive. They were just searching for a body. And the fact that he made it made me want to call him up, say, can I interview you? And he lived in California and I said, I will be on the next flight out when he said yes.

Mindy:             Have you ever written about an event where the outcome wasn't so rosy, where people were lost or there was not that element of redemption or hope at the end? Have you ever had to handle something like that?

Michael:          Yes, and surprisingly that's one of the books that people love and I get mail on and that's the Ten Hours Until Dawn for adults and Into the Blizzard for young adults. It does not have a a neat and happy ending. It's uplifting in that people did their best and tried. But what made that research interesting and unique for me was if some of the people perished, how can you write about what they're going through unless you speculate? And I got very lucky that someone on land recorded all their radio communications. So in some cases the men who are doomed are telling you what they're doing to try and fight through this, this storm, you know? And so getting back to say the proposals, for example, I remember when I wrote the proposal for that, I said this book is similar to The Perfect Storm, but very different in that in The Perfect Storm, Sebastian Junger had to speculate. But in Ten Hours Until Dawn, I have the radio transcripts and I, weave in what the men were saying from the actual radio communications and that, that definitely gives it this extra edge of tension when, you know, it's not Michael Tougias, uh, making up dialogue. I'm taking it direct from these audio tapes.

Mindy:             Oh boy, are those, is it difficult to listen to?

Michael:          Well, because I didn't know the men, it wasn't too difficult. But by the end of, you know, the year and a half of research, I did feel close to two of the guys in particular and, and it did become difficult. And when I speak on the subject, it's difficult to talk about them. One was a Charlie Bucko and he was like somebody out of central casting, like a Hollywood character. This tall, good looking guy with a free spirit. Funny, uh, had been in Vietnam, two purple hearts when he was there. He’d done a whole bunch of coast guard rescues and then decided I'm getting out of the coast guard cause I'm getting married and I don't want to make my wife a widow. And uh, when the storm comes and he's asked to go out and help some coastguard men or women in trouble out in the ocean, he says yes. And as the author, you know, the outcome isn't going to be good. So where you've grown close to that character, each time you speak on that subject, it does cause a little bit of pain.

Mindy:             Mmm. I can't imagine. I really can't. Coming up research and the process of interviewing your subjects face to face.

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Mindy:             How much research do you do before you actually began writing the book? Like, how much of a grounding do you take before you, before you decide you have enough to begin?

Michael:          I oftentimes I'll start the book even though I know the research is still going to continue and I encourage other writers to do the same because you can always go back and add more, tweak it, it starts to coalesce a little better if you actually start the writing while you're doing the research. And in terms of the, the time involved, I'd much rather interview people who were involved, you know, and just let them talk with a tape recorder than going back through archival material. In some books I've had to do, had to do both. For example with uh, The Finest Hours, you know, that became the movie. You know, some of the people involved are no longer with us. So you're going through newspaper interviews that they gave back in 1952 others are in their eighties when I interviewed them. And that was great cause I could sit down with these older gentlemen and just let the tape recorder run and then do follow ups. So it is, it is nice to have that mix. Whereas you know, if you're, I did two books on King Phillip's Indian war. There, it's all archival material and after a while it's kind of a lonely process.

Mindy:             Yes, exactly. And that was going to be my next question. Do you have a research assistant?

Michael:          I do it all on my own. You know, unless you're the David McCullough of the world, you're not going to have a research assistant. So that that strength of yours, you'll have to develop as strong as the writing of having people be comfortable around you to really open up and, and give them the confidence that you're going to tell their story accurately. Every once in a while you'll meet someone who's reluctant to, to talk. In the book A Storm Too Soon, there's three, three survivors and two wanted their stories to be out and be known, but the third didn't. But eventually I was able to show him the early chapters based on my interview with the other two and the rescuers. And that gave him a comfort level. And he was like, well, it's my story too. I don't want to be left out. So sometimes they will come around, you just, you have to be patient and not, not pressure them. But be persistent would be, uh, the message because oftentimes they'll change their mind when they see you're very serious and you're gonna pay close attention to the details.

Mindy:             Well, and also I assume when you are working with subject matter where people were in intense situations, they were in traumatic situations, I'm sure that you, you have to illustrate that you're going to be handling this correctly and with respect.

Michael:          Exactly. Um, and you know, and sometimes you become close friends with these people. The main survivor in my book Overboard, I just stayed at his house last week. I spend the winters in Florida and he's on the other side of Florida and I was over there speaking. So I just called them out of the blue and said, Hey, I'm going to be in your neck of the woods. Can I stay at your place? I've stayed there before. And he's like, sure Mike. And uh, you know, so we've become close. He knows he's got an open invitation to stay on my side of Florida and vice versa. So that, that's one of the biggest rewards I think is the friendships. And when the book comes out that the people who were there saying, you've got it right. Thank you. You know, they're sticking their necks out with a total stranger and because it's such a sensitive topic to them, life and death, you can't help but grow close. You know, you'd have to be a cold hearted SOB not to grow close to these people.

Mindy:             The ability to interview someone and to get them to open up, but also for them to be comfortable and to understand that you do regard them not just as a story or a scoop that they're a human being that has been through something. There's a special skill to getting people to open up to you. And, um, developing that relationship. So do you have any tips about how to be a both ethic and moral, ethical and moral interviewer?

Michael:          I do think it's okay to let the people you've interviewed check over your rough draft. Um, I don't see anything wrong with that. They're the one, they're the only ones who know the story anyways. If they're say out on the ocean alone, um, you're going by what they tell you. So I, I find that puts them at ease knowing, okay, I'm going to get a look at it. They're not going to change my writing style. They're not going to change the structure. But they may catch a little mistake here and there. Like they'll say, Oh, Mike, this event only lasted an hour. You have it down as lasting a couple hours. This shark, Mike, you've got it as five, but I got to tell you, it could be nine feet. You know, little things like that. And I welcome those. I want it, I want to make it accurate. So I think that would be a key way for a writer to have their subject feel comfortable. Say I'd be happy to let you take a look at these drafts and correct me if I'm wrong on anything.

Mindy:             And when it comes to actually conducting your interviews, do you tend to meet with the same person more than once?

Michael:          Yes. And I'll have a tape recorder and oftentimes sometimes I'll show up with two tape recorders and be taking notes and they'll be like, why? And I'll be like, I'm so afraid one won't record. You know, this is so important to me to get it all. And uh, and I always let them know, you know, we'll keep this conversation going for as long as, or as little as you like. With Ernie Hazzard and the book Fatal Forecast. I stayed at his house for a week straight. We had a wonderful time. We would do the interviews in the evening and then sometime, and then the next day I'd go over it and I'd have questions. Uh, but we'd also spend some fun time going out to dinner or taking walks. Yeah. My style's a little different. He had been interviewed by somebody else and he said, yeah, that person was just all business. And he said, you're not that. So I'm more comfortable. And I said, that's just me yet, you know, I, I, I don't know any other way to do it.

Mindy:             Yeah. And I think that you're going to get, especially if you're writing, you're writing beyond the facts with your nonfiction, you're actually delving into the person and their experience and their humanity. And in order to actually tap into that, you need more than the bare bones of the events. You need to understand this human being as well as you can.

Michael:          It's exactly it's, yeah. And sometimes you, the best way to do it is face to face. Now, if it's a minor character in the book, I don't mind doing the interview over the phone. You get the gist of what you need. What if it's a major character? You definitely want to be with them in person. You know, I've, I flew to France for one of the characters in A Storm Too Soon and stayed. I took my daughter with me and we stayed with the gentleman and his wife, uh, for four days and it was, we had the time of our lives, so, and he was just so appreciative that I came over. Um, so he's like, okay, this guy means business. He's kind of, he's really devoting himself to this project.

Mindy:             Absolutely. And speaking of that devotion, typically, how much time does it take you from rough draft to final products?

Michael:          It does vary, but I would say for the true survival rescue books, usually about two years. If you were doing it, you know, you're not, you're never doing anything full time. I speak around the country and you know, to either business groups or a lecture, I'm never doing it full time, but I'd say about two years. But you know, as I'm giving you that answer, I'm thinking of my latest book. It's going to be called The Waters Between Us. It's about me growing up in the relationship with my father and most of the book takes place in the, in the outdoors cause I'm an outdoors guy, always on rivers. And, um, that book took me... It's been at least 10 years and you would think that would be the fastest one to do because I'm writing it a lot from my own memory, but some parts, some parts are challenging and there's a tragedy in the book of family tragedy that brings my father closer together.

Michael:          But my two brothers advised me, we prefer you don't write about that. And I said I have to, it's, it's part of my journey of growing up. But I'd like you to take a look at that chapter because you were involved in this tragedy. It makes sure I don't make any mistakes. So there were just little things like that that made it a very time consuming book and not a lot of rewrites on that book compared to others. You know, for example, Overboard, I sent the manuscript to Simon & Schuster, the editor got back to me a month later and said it looks great. I'm sending it on to the copy editor. And I was like, Oh, you know, no changes? Nope, looks great. He said, so I was happy as hell. Cause I thought it looked good too. And then of course the copy editor makes a bunch of improvements because I always could use help there. Whereas The Waters Between Us, uh, I'd say the first three chapters I rewrote six, seven times.

Mindy:             When you're doing the research, when you're compiling, do you have... I know you were saying you usually have your recorder and you also are taking physical notes. When you are getting ready to compile all of this information, do you have a certain system that you go about? Do you have a corkboard in front of your desk? Do you spread things out on the floor around you? What's your method?

Michael:          Um, I'm glad you asked because it's, it's very unusual and very old fashioned. Um, everything's paper copies and everything's in files in the right order. So for example, I'll know where this interview or this bit of archival research goes and it might be a file I label "beginning of chapter two," you know, or it might be labeled "the ending of chapter two." But in each one of those files will be a whole bunch of paper, some will be little handwritten notes that I woke up in the middle of the night and remembered, all I need to say this. And um, it's would probably drive the younger people nuts who are used to everything digitally or electronically. But it just works for me. And in the writing process, and again, I just finished, uh, this new book just a couple of days ago, I would take all these different notes and then start looking at them and condensing them into say three or four sheets of master notes per chapter. So you're starting to throw out these little slips of paper and just get the gist of it down. And uh, yeah, so I'm a kind of a paper guy. Other people they might go to say the National Archives with their camera and take photos of whatever this historical document they're doing is right? For me, it's like, what am I going to do with that photo? I need it. And you know, like you said, laid out on the floor and on tables all around my writing station.

Mindy:             Yeah, that's what I do as well. Even though I write fiction, I do a lot of research before I start writing about anything and I will just have piles around me kind of fanned out and it may not make sense to anyone else and that's fine. It doesn't have to, it only needs to make sense to me and I often just have kind of a mess all around me and I just like to think of taking all that information. It's just being funneled into one place and transformed into fiction. And that's, that's my own process and it's, it is mostly physical copies as well. I, for whatever reason, when I'm doing research, I want to have that physical copy in front of me to write on, to make notes. I need that tactile interaction. It all helps me feel like I'm being more effective of a researcher.

Michael:          Do you find that, um, you write a pretty detailed outline for the fiction books and then when you're actually writing the book, you don't pay that much attention to the outline?

Mindy:             I don't outline at all. I keep all my information right at my fingertips so that when I get to a point where I need to reference something, I know which pile I need. I reach out and I grab that particular paper. But usually no, I'm not doing any type of outlining. I'm a, I'm a big fan of pantsing most everything.

Michael:          So you have a general idea of where this fiction book is going, but you don't have it all spelled out, you know, chapter by chapter. Here's how it's gonna flow.

Mindy:             Yeah, no, not at all. I, I just do the deep dive and I see what happens. So the way it feels organic to the fiction.

Michael:          And again, and that's, that's kinda similar even on the nonfiction where I do need a little bit of an outline via the proposal. Once I start writing, oftentimes I veer way off what I originally thought the flow would be. And do you, do you find Mindy, that at your level now that you can get a contract without writing the whole book?

Mindy:             Yeah, I'm, I'm fortunate enough that I can usually just pitch a synopsis, but my editor knows at this point that what I turn in as a synopsis may or may not be what actually happens in the book. I just give them something that says, this is my concept and this is probably what happens, but you know, that I may not stick to it and they, they will operate within those parameters for me. They think the concept is there. They trust me enough to know that I'll deliver the book.

Michael:          Oh, that's, that's a great, uh, a great relationship to have where they have that, that trust for you.

Mindy:             Yeah, it is. It is. I can't complain and uh, I revel in it and I know that I'm lucky and I'm very glad because fiction as you were saying, you do generally have to have a finished manuscript and you can pour a couple of years into a manuscript that may never sell.

Michael:           I know, I know. We're, we're in the craziest business there is, you know, maybe equated to farming where you don't know if your crops gonna ever get harvested or not. Something's going to come along, a hailstorm and wipe it out. But um, yeah, it's a nutty business where you just don't know if all that hard work you're going to be paid for it. But there's something that drives us and if you get that little bit of encouragement, you, you keep going and you do need to be persistent. If you're not a persistent type of person, it's probably not the right business for you.

Mindy:             Absolutely. It's funny that you bring up the farming comparison because I am from a family of farmers and that's how I grew up. And you just, you really don't understand what fluctuations are like until your entire question of whether or not you get new shoes depends on if it rains.

Michael:          That's, that's perfect. Right. And it's the same for same for a writer. You're pitching these ideas and you might have had 50 rejections and you're wondering, when am I going to be able to buy new shoes.

Mindy:             Yeah

Michael:          Yeah. Well, like I say, you only need one win in this business. It's, you know, you don't need a high batting average. All you need is one publisher. And with, with nonfiction, oftentimes you're going to a different publisher because it's a different topic. For example, one book that I co-wrote is about the first U-Boat to come into the Gulf of Mexico and it, it sinks a freighter with a family of four on board. So you have a World War II story, but right here off our coast. Simon and Schuster, they weren't interested. My editor there is more interested in those more recent survival at sea stories. So they weren't enthusiastic about it, but I found a wonderful publisher with Pegasus Books to do So Close to Home. So, you know, you're out there pitching from scratch to a brand new publisher. Yeah, I'd say over my career I've probably had 12 different publishers.

Mindy:             Wow.

Michael:          Yup. And the, and the relationship with Christy Ottaviano for these true rescue series for the middle reader that looks like the most permanent one. Yes I could see she and I working together on these types of books. Uh, we've got three that are out now and two more on the way. Um, I could see that relationship continuing.

Mindy:             That's wonderful. That's, I hope so. I think that's fantastic. Last thing, where can listeners find your books and where can they find you online?

Michael:          My website, Michael, and then the last name is spelled T, O, U, G, I, A, S dot com. So Michael togaius.com and on that website there's a little bit of everything. There's, you'll see the, the raft and the 80 foot waves where I mentioned the rescue swimmer was in trouble. You'll see that video. You'll see a video of me describing how I put a book together. Uh, there's a place to purchase autographed books. There's, uh, a little bit of about the speaking that I do for business groups that are inspiring stories. Or for example, from the Cuban missile crisis, I do a program about JFK. What were the steps in his decision making to come to the right conclusion to get the missiles out of Cuba without starting nuclear war? So I've crammed a lot into that website. I'm so glad I had help building it because my attempts were awful. All the help I can get, I feel confident with my writing, but just about everything else, uh, I need help.

Abbigail N. Rosewood on Accessing Your Pain For Fiction

Mindy:             Today’s guest is Abbigail N. Rosewood, whose debut, If I Had Two Lives, follows a young girl from her childhood in a military camp in 1990s Vietnam, where her mother is in hiding as a political dissident, to her adulthood as a lonely and disillusioned immigrant in New York, where she must learn what it means to love and be loved, and to reconfigure home in the aftermath of ruins. Abbigail joined me today to talk about diving deep into your emotions to develop an authentic relationship with your reader.

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Mindy:             One of the things that a lot of writers struggle with is inspiration. It can be hard to find at times. I know plenty of people that know that they have a book in them, but they aren't sure what it is. So if you could talk a little bit about inspiration, because I know that it can be a slippery muse to grab a hold of for a lot of people.

Abbigail:           I think one of the first place that a writer can go to for inspiration is memories of your own childhood, old memories. The first time you felt a first love or memories of intense emotion. So for example, one of my first taste of acute fear was just waking up, not having my mother there and then she would be after that, she would be gone for nearly five years. Um, and I didn't see her again. So it was my first taste of fear. And then nowadays, you know, people call it like fear of abandonment and things like that. And it was this very primal and overwhelming experience. You know, when my whole being at the time was just kind of reduced to a single desire of like, how do I get to my mother? And like dialing the phone and trying to reach her. And so this experience, that experience taught me a lot about love and desire. And so I think inspiration can come - for me comes from that place of grief and pain. Everyone knows what it's like to be in pain, to grieve and the source of your pain is what makes it compelling to the reader.

Mindy:             And you're talking about fear, which of course - you're absolutely right, you used the perfect word. It is primal. That is your reptilian brain that is kicking in. And so often that emotion of fear is also connected to love in a lot of ways. Especially you mentioned first times. So the first time you fall in love, not many people have a first time I fell in love story that ends well. Right? And you usually are remembering it because you've got your heart broken.

Abbigail:           Absolutely.

Mindy:             Well, you're talking about fear and love and I think those two things can be bound up in one another and loss as well. Obviously you're going to feel a loss connected to love in many ways and yes, we all have those emotions. We all have those points in time in our past that we can point at and share with the author. So can you talk a little bit then about how you tap into those emotions with your fiction?

Abbigail:           One of the first thing I do is, you know, trying to go back to those feelings. I think just allowing yourself to feel and to be honest with how you felt. Like for example, you know, I think the feeling of like humiliation and shame is really hard to confront. So when you're trying to tap into those feelings, our tendency is kind of to cover it up. Like for example, honesty actually does complicate things because then you have so many more layers. So emotional honesty is really important in writing. I think.

Mindy:             Absolutely. And honest self reflection isn't something that you get very often. A lot of people, um, in readers especially, I think it's interesting talking about these first emotions of fear and also love and loss. Having taken those moments and also allowing for some healthy self reflection that might not always be flattering. That's where you grow, right? That's where you get growth.

Abbigail:           Yes, exactly. Well you right, you also can figure out what you actually felt.

Mindy:             Yeah. And writing as self reflection is, is I think an incredibly useful tool. And is that something then that you were exploring within yourself when you were working on your book, If I Had Two Lives? Cause I know very often it's like I will write a character that isn't necessarily a a great person, right? Or they'll make bad choices or they'll do things that are quote unquote not within the normal realm of a good choice or a moral choice. And those characters are the ones that I am going to relate to the most. Are you taking those deep dives into your internal self when you're writing, when you're reflecting on things? Did it come from that place within yourself or did you find as you began writing that it was speaking to you perhaps in ways that you weren't anticipating being so personal?

Abbigail:           I think it's both. You know, like I didn't anticipate where the story leads me, but I also, I also started to see like why something would have come out a certain way. I think it's always very personal, but also it's a way to kind of ask like what if? You know, what else? And it's a way to invent the answer for myself and to give myself certain emotional conclusions. Um, you know, because if I had to realize it's a fiction novel and so it's always about emotional accuracy. So for example, like I'm trying to capture that feeling of isolation and of loneliness. So I try to find ways to kind of reflect that. So the landscape would be more desolate or usually the character is like alone in a room and the focus is in the details of the room. Just trying to find way to pin down those more, more complex feelings.

Mindy:             What other places do you use to look at for inspiration other than your memories?

Abbigail:           I read a lot of books. Um, so I think other authors always inspire me. You always end up writing what you read too. So you know, I think being aware of like what genre do you love to read, what, who are your favorite authors? And usually you are an accumulation, like your own writing is an accumulation of all the things that you have read and loved.

Mindy:             Reading is very much... It's why I'm a writer.

Abbigail:           Yes, exactly. Me too. I think that's the difference between somebody who, who just says that they want to write and then somebody who actually is a writer is the reading. Because somebody who is a writer just reads all the time. It's very important. Um, so that's where I get my inspiration now. So I love art house films. They are little bit different than, you know, the, the more blockbuster like Hollywood movies. So I try to seek out really strange firms that like nobody ever, ever seen. Um, and those, uh, can be more surprising, um, plot wise and imagery and feeling. So yeah, I tend to watch like art house films for inspiration too as well. I actually have a section on my website that I put up, like all my favorite films. Autumn Sonata by Ingmar Bergman. It's a very old. It's 1978. So he's, he's obviously more well known, but that film is almost completely dialogue driven. So it's very good for writers and I watch it with the subtitles on so that I can read. I watch all films with subtitles on so that I can, I can read like how the actual writing is written.

Mindy:             You know, that is a great tip actually. I know a lot of writers that do that. They watch with subtitles on. Yeah, because you're interacting with it in a different way that then it's not all audio input. You're also, you're also reading the words and it actually engages your brain in a different way.

Abbigail:           I think that's fascinating. Yeah. I think it's a really good way to learn about writing as well.

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Mindy:             So If I Had Two Lives is your debut novel and you are here to talk to my audience, which is mostly comprised of aspiring writers, about three things you need to know before writing a novel. So I'm sure that they would love to hear.

Abbigail:           Knowing which genre your work might belong. Just be a good literary citizen, like knowing who you are in conversation with. Many people don't really know what the difference is between genre fiction and literary fiction. Be ready to examine you know, your pain and grief. Um, I don't think that anything should be too painful to write about. Like the thing that is most painful to you is exactly is the exact thing that is most compelling.

Mindy:             I love what you're saying about being a good literary citizen because, and this kind of came up earlier, you're talking about being a reader before you were a writer. And I can tell you so many times that I have been on tour or teaching or interacting with people that want to be writers. And sometimes I ask, well, what do you read? Who would you like to read? Who is your favorite author? And these people that are presenting themselves as aspiring writers are like, Oh, I don't read that much. And there is this kind of feeling that, and I could be inferring from the tone, but often when I meet these people, there is this idea that they have a story inside of them that is so original and so fantastic that reading is going to pollute their inner workings. Or that they don't feel like anything that has been written is worthy of them to read because they have something better to bring the public. And that's just simply not true. There are only so many storylines, everything has been done. All we're doing is bringing our own experiences and our own twist to it. So being a good literary citizen to just beyond labeling yourself as a writer, you have to be a reader if you're not a reader. And if you're not out there experiencing the art form as a consumer and you just want to be the artist, that is a dead end.

Abbigail:           Yeah, I agree. I think, I think that's probably a little bit arrogant or not a lot of arrogant, if not. Just to assume that like you know that nobody else has anything to teach you. It's just not a good place to start. So reading a lot is essential for sure.

Mindy:             You also mentioned being willing to dive deep and ask yourself those hard questions and re-experience of your own pain. That is very, very apt and very true. If you want to touch someone, like if you want to reach out and ask the stranger, someone you will never meet to read your words and make themselves vulnerable to you emotionally to allow you to touch them and make them feel pain and make them feel grief or loss or happiness, all of these things. But you also have to be opening yourself up and putting your pain, your loss, also your happiness and your redemption - if those are part of your story- into it. You have to have that personal touch in there. You don't necessarily have to be telling them about your life. It's not a biography, but you're pulling your own pain in there for them to access.

Abbigail:           Yes. Yes, exactly. I mean it's, you know, the book a relationship between you and a reader. To me, I feel like it's a lot like, you know how friendships, the bonds and friendship becomes stronger because you have been willing to become vulnerable, to risk something. So taking risks in writing is important. You are taking a risk of looking foolish or looking weak or, of seeming... Coming off like a psychopath or any of those things. Risking a lot of judgment, in order to, to be a good friend or to make, to make friendships. And I think it's the same in writing because it's a conversation with the reader.

Mindy:             Yeah, absolutely. It's a conversation and it's a relationship. You are asking them to emotionally engage with you and so you have to give them something. If you don't, then you're withholding within the relationship. I can particularly relate to the fear of having someone think that perhaps you might be a psychopath, in my own writing. Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, it's a concern, but I'm honest in my books. I've put it all out there and if people are scared to meet me, that's perfectly fine.

Abbigail:           You know, the writer typically has multiple selves because you dive into the characters, but also, you know, there's like a writing, a writing self and like there's like the human self and I think my writing self is particularly cruel. And more willing to like slaughter the characters, more willing to take risks and make them go through things. So to allow them decisions that I myself wouldn't exactly make.

Mindy:             Personally I've had the question put to me so many times. Is it difficult for you to hurt your characters? Is it hard for you to put them through all these things you put them through in? The answer is no, because suffering is interesting. I mean, no one wants to read a book where everything's fine and no one ever has anything bad happen to them that's not a plot.

Abbigail:           Yeah, yeah, exactly. And people who suffer are also interesting. When somebody is telling you a story we want to hear about issues. That's like the entire human experience, is our troubles.

Mindy:             Absolutely. Our troubles. That's the best way to put it because it's why dystopian was so big like 10 years ago and utopias aren't because nothing interesting happens in a utopia.

Abbigail:           Who would want to read about a character that have had everything in their life figured out and was just a total Zenmaster? Well that's nonfiction.

Mindy:             That's a self help book.

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Mindy:             Let's talk about the actual publication process. It can be so difficult. A lot of my listeners I know struggle with those steps. Like once you've gotten to the point where you're opening yourself up emotionally, you're taking those steps, you're accessing yourself and you have written the book. Talk about your publication journey and the steps that you took and how you arrived, where you are with your debut, If I Had Two Lives.

Abbigail:           I just Googled a lot of query letters and I copied and I made up a document of like, you know, just 20 different letters online. And just seeing like how to best summarize and put forth my work. I also went to a writing conference at the New School and they had this thing called agent and author speed dating. You can pitch your work with like few agents there. So I did that and that's actually where I met my agent. I think she was paired up with a different author and, but then her author didn't show up, so I just kind of swooped in and started talking. So it was kind of awkward. But then, you know, everything was fine. So later on I went home and sent her my work and I worked on the query letters for months. It's only one page, but I scrutinize it, you know? I had friends who read it and gave me feedback. I sent out my query letter to as many agents as I could find.

Abbigail:           And I read a little bit on their bio, what they're looking for so that I can personalize each letter. So that's the querying process. I mean, that alone can like, can take forever to go through. But then the next step is, you know, obviously waiting for representation, an offer of representation, and then signing with the agent for my book. I did some edits with her and then the book went on to first round submission and it got all rejections back and then I took a month off, like not looking at it again, not doing anything with it. And then after that I went back in to do more edits based on all the feedback that we got from the editors. After that, she went on submission for the second time and that's where, that's when I got an offer from a publisher.

Mindy:             So you specifically, you met your agent at a conference. That can be really intimidating for a lot of people. Like it sounds like you saw an opportunity and you put yourself out there and that takes a lot of courage and I know that that courage can be kind of alien to some aspiring writers. It takes a lot for them to even show up at a conference, let alone sit down in front of an agent, especially if it wasn't their slot. And you just saw an opportunity and jumped. So can you talk about that and then talk about like how you felt emotionally jumping in there and what that conference experience was like?

Abbigail:           I of course I was terrified. I'd never done anything like that. And you know, I'm a pretty shy person. I went to the conference like with paragraph memorized and I know that I'm going to sound kind of robotic through some of it, but it just, once you start pitching enough times then it will, it will come more naturally. But I, I came prepared essentially. So I think I was quite prepared but I was very nervous and, I mean to this day I'm still quite nervous when people ask me what my book is about so I don't think that ever really goes away.

Mindy:             You get better at pitching yourself and wearing that salesman cap. You were talking earlier about putting on your writer cap and you know, my personality as a writer is one thing. My personality of who I am in the daily world is another. Uh, and the same is true. You have to be able to switch out your writer cap with your marketing cap and you were talking about the query letter and how difficult that is to write. It is. And one of the reasons why is because it's a piece of marketing. You're not writing the letter as a literary author, you're writing it as a marketer and that can be a really awkward place for a lot of writers to come from.

Abbigail:           It is, it is cause you have to all of a sudden you have to sound like you fully believe in yourself. But it's just so hard to do. You know, it takes practice and you can take your time writing the query letter and making it. Mine went through like 10 drafts or something like that. Probably more.

Mindy:             And how many queries did you send out, do you know?

Abbigail:           I probably sent out like over 50. I know at least at least over 50. A lot of agents never even got back to me. Or some just got back to me four months after I queried, which at that point I already had signed with an agent. It just, it's just a really long drawn out process of waiting.

Mindy:             And it does wear down that confidence. But you have to wear it even if you're not feeling confident. When you do that pitch, when you sit down in front of an agent, you do have to have that confidence on you. Even if you're faking it, you, you still have to dig deep and see if you've got that in you somewhere.

Abbigail:           And it's okay to be rejected obviously. You know, sometimes it can be a good thing if the agent or the editor reject you, because like if you end up with the wrong person it can be a really bad journey.

Mindy:             Speaking of rejection, you said your entire first round of sending out the actual novel to editors met with rejections. So how does that, I always think it's interesting to talk about that particular stage of rejection versus the query stage of rejection because with query they're just like, you know what? It's not my thing. I'm not really interested in it, but at the level of being rejected by the full manuscript, they're actually rejecting your writing. If you could talk a little bit about that, just that experience of rejection of the actual book. I think it's super helpful for people that have experienced that to see that you, you know, it only takes one.

Abbigail:           Yes. It was nauseating. Honestly, it was my first book. I thought it was like the end of the world. I thought, I thought that it was never going to get accepted anywhere. You know? I would burst out in tears randomly in public, like walking down the street and all of a sudden it would come. And I was just in such a bad place because I thought I put everything I could into the book and I was just thinking like if they don't want this, there's nothing else that I could offer that they would want. Just a feeling of despair. So you have to kind of wait for that to pass and to calm down before you could go back and, and really try to work on it and address the issues that came up in the editor's notes. It was horrendous.

Mindy:             Horrendous is the right word. It's incredibly painful.

Abbigail:           Artists make art because in many ways, because we want to be understood too. Um, and I think it just more confirmation that nobody understands and so that's a really painful feeling. But yeah, it only takes one person to get it.

Mindy:             I think the other thing that is important for people to realize is that you get that one and that's fantastic and it's a beautiful feeling, but you also, you still have to keep working. So you have managed to get that first book out there and immediately you have to ask yourself, okay, what next?

Abbigail:           It doesn't end. And the rejections don't end either. I thought that after I put out my novel, like if I write short stories or an essay, I would have an easier time like placing them in newspapers or journals, anything like that. Nope, still rejections. Still difficult as ever. Going back to three things to know before writing a novel. I would add that one of them is to know that the life that you've chosen is a life of rejection and you have to be okay with that.

Mindy:             Yes, absolutely. Because rejections never stop. You're going to get bad reviews. You will, no matter what. And bad reviews are a rejection, you know?

Abbigail:           And then even after having, you know, sold a book, you can't really just like wash your hands of responsibility. It's like you have to help with promotion and you have to be able to talk about the book in an intelligent way and honest way. So it just continues. I think it's interesting like the authors that choose to publish anonymously. In a way, it takes great confidence to publish anonymously too because it just saying like, Oh, you know, my work can just stand on its own without any, without me having to be attached to it or to have to present it or market in a certain way. Um, I certainly don't have that kind of kind of confidence. So I feel like anything I have to do, everything I can put into a book to succeed.

Mindy:             All right, so last thing. Why don't you tell us where listeners can find you online on social media and where they can find your book?

Abbigail:           Facebook, I have an author Page and I update, just like new new writing and events and whatnot. And then I also have an Instagram, so that's where you can find me.