Writing Tough Topics for Teens with Jamie Beth Cohen

Mindy:             Today's guest is Jamie Beth Cohen, author of Wasted Pretty. A writer and storyteller who works in higher education, her nonfiction has appeared in the Baltimore Sun, the Washington Post and Teen Vogue. Jamie joined me today to talk about writing tough topics for teens.

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Ad:                   16 year old Alice Burton has a crush on a college guy, but the night he finally notices her, so does her dad's creepy best friend. Wasted Pretty by Jamie Beth Cohen follows Alice as she tries to protect her future, her body and her heart.

Mindy:             Wasted Pretty, that's your debut. It deals with some heavy topics such as sexual assault. I know that I get this question all the time because of my own content. Why write about dark topics for teens?I always say because it happens to them. So what is your answer?

Jamie:              Well, I like your answer very much and it's much more concise than what I generally say. But I'd add that my goal in any writing that I do is to connect with people. I spent a lot of time thinking that the dark things that were happening to me were only happening to me. And I thought other kids came from uncomplicated families or were better at dealing with trauma than I was. Um, but as an adult, I've come to believe that we're all just really doing the best we can with what life has handed us and knowing that other people are also dealing with heavy, heavy stuff can be really helpful when you're going through it. So my, why do I write about it? I agree with you. I write about it because it happens.

Mindy:             Yes, it does. And it happens to, unfortunately it happens across the gamut. It happens on all age levels and however, like you're saying, when you're young, you do make some assumptions and you do worry a lot about being different. That's something that pops up a lot. Like socially, you don't want to be different. Thinking you're the only one that this is happening to, that you're the only one who has suffered in this way is really common. Like that is a very, for younger people, that is something that contributes to them not vocalizing when there's any type of assault or abuse. And also of course the self-blame, which I think comes in at any age, but especially when you're younger and you don't know better and don't know about all of the baggage and the history that comes along with sexual assault and victim blaming. So what are your thoughts on that when it comes to the youth and how they have to process some of these harder topics?

Jamie:              I agree with you. It happens at all ages. And I think the victim blaming specifically is, I'm not sure if it's the way just women or girls are wired, but I know it's the way I'm wired. And also that the alienation makes it so much worse. I mean, I had surgery when I was in first grade on my ureters. Your ureters go from your kidneys to your bladder. So the surgery was in that sort of private part area and I was in first grade and I was petrified and I was embarrassed and I think I probably had some shame that went along with it and my parents couldn't figure out. I think they thought that I was maybe reacting more strongly than they expected me to. And when my mom finally drilled down to it, I told her it was because I thought the doctor had never performed this surgery before because I assumed nobody else had problems like that. This is all he does. Like this is the surgery he performs like 10 times a day. And then as soon as she said that, I mean I was still afraid, but I was no longer alone. And so to think that you're only one to think it's your fault to think I, you know, I had this problem that I didn't even realize the doctor knew how to deal with is very common at many ages.

Mindy:             Yeah. It's so true. And especially when it comes to dealing with anything in your private area or anything like that, that deals with something that perhaps some of us have been taught is gross or Yucky or bad or we've already been taught to be ashamed of. It contributes to the guilt and the shame and the, and the feelings of alienation or isolation. Your novel Wasted Pretty deals with sexual assault. And in the case of the novel, it deals with specifically a girl who is just kind of getting some positive attention that she's really been looking for from someone for a while. But then she also has attention coming to her from someone that is completely inappropriate. So if you could talk about that for a little bit and how your character is juggling those two things and comparing them.

Jamie:              I wanted it to be okay for it to be exciting that she was getting attention for her looks and this was something that she hadn't had for a very long time and then all of a sudden she did and how exciting that was and then to sort of have that double whammy of, Oh wait a minute, I'm not in control of how this affects other people, so nothing changes internally for the girl. All of her changes are external and she remains the same person inside but is now dealing with a whole host of different reactions to her. And so I wanted to look at that because I think that's true to life. I mean I think that happened, that happened to me, that happened to many of my friends. I worked in a high school, I watched it happen to other girls, but on top of that I was also looking to explore in the book the person she wants to be attracted to her is someone her parents do not want her spending time with and the person she doesn't want attention from is her father's best friend.

Jamie:              And so he has this unfettered access to her that he really shouldn't have. And I wanted to explore this area of things that look one way from the outside but are really something else on the inside. And so sort of a former bad boy who's really trying to clean up his act is actually someone much safer to be around. Then a sort of a famous professional athlete that has no checks on him whatsoever. In the book, the professional baseball player is her father's best friend. He's also bankrolling her mom's business. So he has money, he has influence, he has celebrity and he's been a family friend for a really long time. So he has unfettered access and I sort of poked at the notion that, you know, parents understand what their kids are going through because oftentimes they don't and certainly feels like they don't. More often than not.

Mindy:             Yeah. And parental trust in other adults is occasionally misguided. We'd all like to think that we know other people, especially our own friends inside and out. But that's not necessarily true. Did you see the documentary, um, Kidnapped in Plain Sight?

Jamie:              No. I've heard about that one. But I did see the movie The Tale. Do you know about The Tale?

Mindy:             I have not seen that or heard of it. No,

Jamie:              it wrecked me. So The Tale is, it is not a documentary, but it was a movie made by a documentarian about her life. So it's like a fictionalized version of her life. And in it she explores her memory of a situation and then she sort of goes back and fact checks it and realizes that in her memory, what she thought was a borderline inappropriate relationship went down, she was 16. But in actuality when it went down, she was 13.

Mindy:             Oh my. That sounds fascinating.

Jamie:              I saw it just in the last couple months. So long after my book was written and published, but listening to people talk about it in interviews, I knew I had to see it and it was, and again it was an adult, it was a coach, it was someone that her parents put their trust in who was completely inappropriate, but as an adult or as she was growing up, she basically told herself the story that it was okay because she was also basically an adult. But when she looked back on it and the actual timeline, that was not the case.

Mindy:             And there again you just have a girl who is making excuses and like even self editing for someone that she has been told that this person is safe, this person is okay. And so she's like, well I must be wrong. Wow, I will have to check that out. That sounds pretty fascinating.

Mindy:             Coming up, getting nonfiction pieces published - talent, hard work and luck.

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Mindy:             You also have nonfiction that has appeared in places like Teen Vogue and The Washington Post. So talk about getting smaller pieces like that place. That is a difficult thing to do is my understanding.

Jamie:              It is really difficult. It is talent and hard work, but it is also luck. I need to be really transparent about that. The way it was happening was I had written my novel, I was trying to get an agent and I wasn't having any luck, but at the same time I do live storytelling and preparing to do live storytelling because the stories have to be true. It's a lot like writing an essay, so while I was trying to get my agent, I decided to start sending out some of my storytelling pieces as essays and I basically educated myself on how one does that. There is not a central database of who's editing what, where. I don't know why. I don't know if it's because people move around so much. I don't know because people haven't figured out a way to monetize that, but basically I taught myself how to research on Twitter to find editors' email addresses.

Jamie:              There are also a couple of groups on Facebook that I'm a part of, mostly for women and non-binary writers that are great for sharing information like that. But I basically educated myself on this process and really went after it hardcore because I was, the novel was something I couldn't work on while I was trying to find an agent. I had sort of frozen it in time, but I still wanted to be writing and this I thought would be a great way to sort of raise my profile and have something to put in that bio paragraph at the end of the query letter.

Mindy:             That bio is a killer. Such a concern.

Jamie:              Yes. So I really wanted something to beef up that bio and I got really lucky. One of my first by-lines was the Washington Post on parenting piece and it really took off and I had been telling stories for several years, so I had a lot of material to pull from and it was a lot of fun actually for me to go back over.

Jamie:              When I prepare for storytelling, I write it out like it's an essay and then I practice it just verbally because we're not allowed to have notes. And so it was interesting to go back and look at the videos of the storytelling and then figure out how to craft a piece that would work better on the page. So that was a lot of fun. It taught me a new skill. The Teen Vogue piece was hilarious because I pitched it as a personal essay and got a response that said, oh, but you'd be interviewing teens for this piece. Right? And I wrote back and said, sure, yes I will. And so then I sort of taught myself about journalism and about, I mean, I hadn't done a reported piece since I was in grade school. You know, when I interviewed my classmates for something, I think it was their favorite song of the year or something. So I, it's like some really quick research on journalistic ethics and conducting interviews. And somehow I turned that piece in on time though I have not pitched a reported piece since, and it's not something I enjoyed. It's not what I like to do.

Mindy:             So tell me more about this live storytelling. What is it? I mean I think it's pretty self explanatory, but I, I'm curious about this. Tell me about your live storytelling and how this informs your physical writing as well. The act of moving those words onto the page.

Jamie:              So for anyone who's heard The Moth podcast or anything like that, I mean that's similar to what we do. So I live in Lancaster, Pennsylvania and we have something called the Lancaster Story Slam. And the rules are five minutes, no notes, no props, no music, as true as you remember it. And that always gets a really big laugh when we're doing the rules because no one is up there fact checking with you. So that's a little bit different. When I turned in an essay, I need to be totally 100% sure that when it's fact checked, if it's fact checked, that everything's going to come out correctly. When you're up there telling the story on stage, no one is standing next to you, fact checking you. So that is a little bit different. But I do really aim for authenticity and honesty.

Jamie:              So we have a monthly story slam in Lancaster, Pennsylvania and a monthly stories slam in New York, Pennsylvania. I'm driving distance to both. I live between the two. What it's been great for over the years is actually prompts. Because every month has a theme. When I was querying and waiting to hear back from people and didn't want to be working on the novel, it gave me a writing prompt every month or two if I was going to both slams. That really helped me get words on paper and there's an, you know, a deadline, it's like show business, right? Like the curtain's going to go up whether or not you're ready. So there was a hard deadline, there was a prompt that's usually pretty open ended and that was a really great way to just keep writing while I was waiting between hearing back from agents.


Mindy:             So I want to return to the idea of your Lancaster group and your other writing groups. But first I want to talk a little bit about the fact that you have worked on both fiction, orally and nonfiction orally and written, so when you are approaching something, when you're approaching a piece of fiction versus a piece of nonfiction, do you have a different way of preparing yourself for those or is there a different writing procedure that you use or do you mix it up to put your brain in a different place? Like you were saying, when it comes to something like fact-checking, if you're working on nonfiction, is your brain in the same place when you're working on fiction versus nonfiction?

Jamie:              It absolutely is not in the same place. But I will say with both I'm always aiming for emotional authenticity, so Wasted Pretty, it's a novel. It's a young adult coming of age novel. Nothing in that book happened the way it happened in my life. The character is 16 and in Pittsburgh and goes to an all girls school. I grew up in Pittsburgh and was a 16 year old in an all girls school. Aside from that, the characters, the plot, everything is made up except for the scene - I always have to say this - in which the main character accidentally locks herself in the bathroom of a boy she has a crush on. I am talented. I did that. That was wonderful and horrible all at the same time. So that actually happened. But aside from that scene, that book is completely made up. But what I tried to do was stay true to the emotions and the feelings that I was having as a 16 year old girl in Pittsburgh.

Jamie:              So that emotional authenticity is there. When I'm writing nonfiction, when I'm writing an essay or like a hot take or response piece that comes from I have just seen something or experienced something and I need to make it make sense. I need to take that sort of real life, real experience and get my head around it. And the only way I know how to do that is by writing. So when I'm writing nonfiction, I'm often going for a message. I'm often trying to take something that's horrible and not necessarily find a silver lining, but at least make it worthwhile so that it's just not horrible. One of my pieces that I love is about taking my daughter to a rally in support of immigrants. It's hard. I mean, I think she was seven at the time. I hated that we had to be there. I loved that we were there, but I hated that we had to be there. I needed it to make sense, and so when I'm writing nonfiction, I'm going more for a message. Whereas when I'm writing fiction, there may be a message, but it is not what's central. The process, what's central to the process is creating an arc that is fun and that is engaging and that makes sense. I will say that I am a terribly literal person and very on the nose writer, so in fiction I'm always working against that tendency and in nonfiction I'm leaning into that tendency.

Mindy:             That makes sense to me. Myself, I've never attempted any essays or anything of that type. Do you have any advice for people who want to attempt essays? Particularly personal based essays?

Jamie:              Not from a craft perspective, but from a pitching perspective. Timely pieces are so much easier to place. I, it's counterintuitive to what I thought going into it. So there are two types of pieces or there are many types, but I write either evergreen pieces, so pieces that really could be published at any time throughout the year and timely pieces which are tied to a news event or something that has just happened in the news cycle. You can send a timely essay to more than one editor at a time, as long as you disclose that you've done that. An evergreen piece, you really have to pitch to somebody, wait to hear back from them, follow up with them a week or two later, maybe never hear back from them or hear back from them that they're passing, and then you can go to the next person. So with an evergreen piece, it could take you six months to get through 10 editors before you find someone to take it.

Jamie:              Whereas with a timely piece you can write to 10 editors at the same time and say, hey, this is timely because it's tied to an event that's happening next Friday. It's being pitched simultaneously and can you get back to me soon if you're interested. So I've had better luck placing timely pieces. So that's one facet of it. As far as the actual craft, it's sort of like what we were talking about, the dark themes. For me, the only thing that works is really leaning into the things I'd rather not think about, but the only way I know how to think about them is writing. That gut level honesty is what is going to make a piece resonate. And then I also got a great piece of advice from Jia Tolentino who just today I think her, her nonfiction essay collection came out and I was in a talk with her last year and she said if what you learn in one of my essays is about me, I haven't done my job. When I'm talking about myself in an essay, it is solely to illuminate a larger issue. I think it's what I'd been doing, but when I heard her say it, I leaned into that even further. So it's not, let me tell you about this horrible thing I experienced when I was 16 but it's, I experienced this thing when I was 16 and why is it still happening to girls and how can we get it to stop?

Mindy:             It's interesting, you were talking about timely pieces and evergreen pieces and unfortunately when we're talking about sexual assault, sometimes things can be both.

Jamie:              That is for sure, but if you can hook it to something concrete, it's more likely that you're going to get it picked up. It's a numbers game. It's more likely that one of those 10 editors will read it and take it as opposed to spacing that out over a six months. I mean, I was talking about luck before and timing my second piece in the Washington Post - I can't say it's solely happened for this reason, but I know for a fact that the editor wrote back and said, I love this. It's really clean. And I had to pull something from tomorrow. So you're going in tomorrow?

Mindy:             Oh my gosh. Did you just pee your pants?

Jamie:              Pretty much. I don't know what she pulled. I don't know why she had to pull it, but for whatever reason she had to pull something. She needed a filler and that's when she opened my email and thankfully it was clean copy. We didn't have to go back and forth on many edits and she just dropped it in. But again, that's the luck part. It's showing up. It's doing the work. It's great that it was clean copy. That was timing and luck and I have no idea why.

Mindy:             That's amazing. Well, and I love that you are so honest about the luck aspect because luck is a huge part. It's a huge part in, uh, the larger placement of novels as well.

Mindy:             Lastly, the dangers of embracing the myth of the solitary writer, how community can help and where to find Jamie online.

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Mindy:             I want to talk a little bit more about the writer's group you mentioned that meets once a month in Lancaster. I think it's really fascinating what you were talking about with the the free storytelling, but also if you could just talk for a little bit about what having a community like that means for you as a writer.

Jamie:              I founded Write Now Lancaster with my friend Michelle Lombardo, who's also a local writer back in 2015 and we are very different writers with very different situations, so at the time she was home writing full time and didn't really know anyone in Lancaster. She had recently moved back here after growing up, sort of in the general area. I had a full time job. I knew a bunch of people from the storytelling community, but I had no time to write. So I was looking for a time, a dedicated time to write and she was looking to meet more people who were writing. And it's interesting that when we founded this together, we sort of hit both of those needs and they've benefited us both and the community really well. So what we do is we come together in a coworking space, a local coworking space called The Candy Factory because it was founded in a candy factory.

Jamie:              And um, we come together once a month and we bring food and drink and we hang out and we chat for about a half an hour. And then I set the timer for 60 minutes and we write silently for 60 minutes and then we hang out and chat for about a half an hour after. So it really hits both of those needs for people who are just looking for the motivation, um, to, to sit and get their butt in the seat and write and also hits the need for people to be in community. So I'm an extrovert who is also a procrastinator. So being in a room with a lot of other people writing, I get energy from them, but I also get motivation because if I'm like surfing the Internet, they're going to see that. And so I, it's like positive peer pressure to know that everyone is working on their writing.

Jamie:              But a lot of things have grown out of that. So we met monthly for two years and realized we didn't know what anyone else was working on. The beauty of a silent writing time meetup is you can be writing poetry, you can be writing non fiction, you can be writing fiction, you can be writing... we had people writing comedy, we had people writing cooking blogs. You're not a fiction writer who is trying to critique poetry. It's not a, it's not a workshop group, it's not a critique group. So after two years we decided to host a public reading and it was the first time we'd ever heard each other's writing. And some of us knew each other better and had swapped before. But really we were so impressed with what everyone was doing. So now every other year we do a public reading so that we can see what everyone's been working on and and you know, give positive reinforcement and get really excited about it. But mostly we are there to write. It's great for beginner writers. It's great for seasoned writers because you're not measuring yourself against people. You're just there because you want to write and you want to be around other people who are writing.

Mindy:             It's much like going to the gym. So I go to the gym about three times a week and I really have to force myself to go sometimes. But once I get there, when I'm in my class and I'm around other people that are really pushing themselves to lift, it will really motivate you to kick up your own game. Being around other people is the same is true of writers. When I see other people writing and other people taking it seriously and sitting there and hitting their laptops, I'm like, oh, I should be doing that too. And it is great motivation, right?

Jamie:              I agree. And I definitely have some friends who are more on the introverted side get distracted easily. So I have a, I have a friend, I mean I love his writing, he's just doing really wonderful things. I met him through storytelling and I love what he's doing and I invite him every month and he's like, I don't want to be around other people when I'm writing. I'm like, that's?? No. Who does that?? And so I definitely get that. It's not for everyone. But it is so for me,

Mindy:             I had the experience of being at an event where a friend needed just kind of to have some space to herself and not have a bunch of people around her. Cause it was a large event and I happened to have a room at the conference. So I was like, you know, you can come up to my room and we'll just, you know, you can chill out here. And she was like, okay. And she whips out her laptop and I whip out mine and we're there and we're together and it's social in the sense that we're in the same place at the same time doing the same thing. But we're both in our own little worlds and we're doing our work. I find it tremendously motivating.

Jamie:              For me, it's important to push back against the idea of all writers are introverts, right? Oh, writing is so solitary. People are miserable. When people lean into that, I often feel like, well wait a minute, am I a real writer? If I like people and I'm generally nice and outgoing and so I know that there are outgoing, lovely, fully functional writers. I mean, and I love to be surrounded by them, but I also, I really like to, whenever possible talk about how much it is about community and how much it is about, hey, take a look at this for me or what can I look at for you? I was just listening to one of your earlier episodes about how, you know, getting readings is often from knowing other people. I mean, I'm from Pittsburgh. And so Kit Frick just moved back to Pittsburgh and I saw that you were there with her and I thought, oh, I wonder how that came about.

Jamie:              And then I was listening to your podcast and you talked about how that came about. So I had an event there two weeks ago and she came out to that event and I introduced her to my friends there. And so my writing is about connecting people. My sort of ethos is about connecting people. And so I guess I would just like to say to any writer listening who feels alienated when people say, Oh, writing. So solitary, it never has been for me. I would, I've written in hotel lobbies, like in my home town, I will go to a hotel lobby with my laptop because I need that background noise and that energy of people

Mindy:             Definitely. I've had the similar experience where I will just go somewhere public because I need that motivation of having people around me. And it really can be something different. And you know, you're right about the isolation too. It is, you know, I mean you can decide whether or not that's who you want to be or what you want to be doing. I know a lot of people that write in groups and they find that uh, you know, very motivating.

Jamie:              It's helpful to hear that there are lots of different ways to be a real writer. I think we get caught up in that a lot.

Mindy:             The poor tortured, starving artists thing is, it's not attractive to actually be that person. Last question, what are you working on right now and where can listeners find you online?

Jamie:              I am working on a sequel to Wasted Pretty, but I recently scrapped 40,000 words. That was really intense, but it was the right thing to do. I have trouble plotting, so I really write my way into the story and I had actually plotted a broad sort of arc for where I thought this was going, but the 40,000 words in it no longer matched the characters. So some people would say that was poor plotting or planning on my part, which it very well may be, but I just don't enjoy plotting. I got to know the characters as I was writing this, and I can't say that none of those 40,000 words are going to end up in the next draft, but I just, I, I paused, I opened up a clean document. I plotted a new arc that made more sense for who the characters had become and now I'm going to write into that and see if that happens.

Jamie:              So hopefully there'll be a sequel. I initially I had wanted to have a zero draft or a first draft by the end of this calendar year. I think that's still possible. Uh, but I do have a full time job and two kids and a husband and friends that I like to spend time with. So we'll see. We'll see what happens with that. I did spend all of July only working on the novel, which meant that for the month of July I didn't write any essays and I learned a lot about myself in that process. Mainly that I'm not a very nice person to be around when I'm not writing essays.

Jamie:              It's all of the stuff that I need to work through gets pent up in there. So that was fascinating. But I did find that when I was writing the novel every day there was much less sort of gear up time. You had asked about what it's like to get into the head space of fiction. And when I was writing the novel every day, I could just sort of sit down and write it. I didn't have to sort of remember where the characters were and get back into those characters heads. They were just right there. So I think if I didn't have a full time job and I could really write every day the way many people do, I understand the benefit of it. But it also, it did zap some of the fun for me. And so I really as a writer need to balance those two things. And as far as where people can find me, I am on Twitter. And I'm on Instagram at I have a Facebook page. And my website where you can find links to all of those things is http://www.jamiebethcohen.com/


The Key To Writing YA Horror: Chelsea Bobulski

Mindy:             Today's guest is Chelsea Bobulski, who graduated from the Ohio State University with a degree in history. As a writer she has a soft spot for characters with broken paths, strange talents and obstacles they must overcome for a brighter future. Her debut young adult novel, The Wood is available now. Her next release, Remember Me, releases August 6th. Chelsea joined me today to talk about querying for five years, the stress of breaking up with her first agent and the importance of maintaining a polite professional attitude while in the query trenches.

Ad:                   16 year old Alice Burton has a crush on a college guy, but the night he finally notices her, so does her dad's creepy best friend. Wasted Pretty by Jamie Beth Cohen follows Alice as she tries to protect her future, her body and her heart.

Mindy:             My listeners are always interested in learning more about the agent hunt. A lot of my listeners are aspiring writers, so tell us first of all who your agent is and how you landed them.

Chelsea:           So my agent is Andrea Somberg with Harvey Klein and she is just amazing. She's everything that I could ever want in an agent and more. She's the perfect cheerleader. She always gets back to me right away when I email her with anything, whether it's like an irrelevant question or me just freaking out about some random author things, she's always right there to answer me. So I love everything about her. Very thankful to have her. But it took a long time to find her. The Wood, which is my first book to come out, was actually my fifth book that I wrote in pursuit of publication. And that happened over a span of five years. And so in those five years and those five books, I probably queried several hundred agents, at least with the first two books. At the time I thought they were really great for what they were.

Chelsea:           And now I'm like hoping no one ever sees them. But you know, I did get some agent interests with both that ended up going nowhere. But they would say, if you ever have another manuscript, make sure to query us again. And so I would keep track of those responses. And then with my third book, I actually never even queried it because I wrote it and I loved the whole foundation of it. I loved the story behind it, but I just knew from both, like a marketing standpoint of what publishers were looking for that it really didn't fit any mold at the time. And I also just knew that even though my voice was becoming stronger as a writer, it wasn't quite there yet. So I was like, instead of querying this, I'm just going to take it as a learning experience. I don't think I'll ever pull that one back out either.

Chelsea:           Just for the same reason as I don't think it really has a place and I don't know that I'd go back to it, but it was a good learning experience. And then my fourth book was a young adult steam punk romance that I still love and someday I might go back to it and try to do something with it. It got a lot of attention. I entered it into several different contests, one of which was Miss Snark's, First Victim Baker's Dozen, which I don't think she does anymore, but at the time I think I got like, I can't remember the exact number of agent requests off of that. I want to say it was like nine to 12 and then I also at the same time I did the very first Pitch Wars contest. I was a mentee in that and I got 12 full requests off of that as well and so really great responses.

Chelsea:           I did end up getting my very first agent through Pitch Wars and he was really great. But I noticed as we went on in our relationship that we had just different professional styles and also different visions of what I should be writing and how I should be writing and different things like that. It just didn't mesh well. He's a great person, just we didn't work well together and so we ended up splitting, which was very difficult. After four books in four years you finally have this and you think this is it, it's finally happening. And then to have to pull that plug and start again was really difficult. And at that time I actually was thinking that I was never going to be an author. It just wasn't in the cards for me. And so as I'm writing my fifth book, which was The Wood my first book to be published, I was at the same time like looking up law schools and like trying to figure out how to get my life back on track.

Chelsea:           I ended up querying only my top five agents at that point because I really was in this like horrible place where I just thought this isn't meant to be for me and I wrote this book because I had to, because the characters were there and they wouldn't let me not write it. Thankfully Andrea Somberg was one of my top five. I think she got back to me within like three weeks with representation. And so to go from my first couple of books, querying hundreds of agents waiting months upon months to hear anything to get an agent within like three weeks of leaving my previous one. I think it just goes to show the importance of never giving up first and foremost, but then also just keeping up professional demeanor with agents throughout and just being a nice person because they remember that and they'll want to work with you again in the future. Hopefully.

Mindy:             They absolutely do. I love your journey because mine was very similar. I also, my fifth written finished novel was the first one I got published. I also had hundreds upon hundreds if not a thousand rejections. I like what you're saying though about maintaining that professionalism because while it is true that agents receive two, three, four or 500 queries in their inboxes a week. If you have been at it for years - and you were and I was as well - they will remember your name. If you are in front of them often and I had multiple agents that would email me back and say, I remember you, you have queried me before. Thank you for your continued interest. This book is not for me, but please keep reaching out because they see your determination. They remember that you are professional and that you are trying to write a query correctly and you're really putting the work into it and you're paying attention to their submission guidelines. And if you are continuous with your attempts, it's not necessarily means that you will succeed, but it does mean that they will notice you and they will remember you. They also will remember you if you are rude and not in a good way.

Chelsea:           Yes, definitely. Never be rude because that doesn't help you at all.

Mindy:             I want to talk to you a little bit about rejections. I don't think I've talked about this on the blog before, but one of the reasons I kept writing, I was at it for 10 years. I didn't achieve representation, but I did come very close in that I had an agent respond to me. It was Jennifer Laughran. Jennifer responded to my query and said, you can really write, this is a great book. If you had queried me with this book (because it was urban fantasy) if you had queried me with this book four years ago, five years ago, I would have signed you and it would have sold. Right now, it's not going to, you need to keep writing and keep querying me. And that rejection made me keep writing. I was ready to quit. I was ready to say just like you. I was looking at masters degrees. I was getting ready to enroll myself to go get my master's of library science because I was going to throw in the towel and say, I've been doing this for 10 years. It's time to quit. It was a rejection that made me keep trying. And I want to follow up a little bit more on what you were saying about letting your first agent go because yes, that had to be terrifying when you had been trying to get an agent for so long you managed it, and then because of professional differences, just not meshing personality wise, you had to let that person go. Yeah, I mean terrifying. So how did you finally make that decision?

Chelsea:           It was so hard. I remember sitting in front of my computer, I had written an email to actually like terminate the contract and my husband was standing there and I had to like have him help me push the button to send it because it was terrifying, you know, to, to have gone so long trying to get an agent for me to decide to split ways that was really, really tough. You do it and you think, I have no guarantee that I'll find another agent. Like this could be the end of my career, right here. Is what you're thinking to yourself. Now, of course, if you're determined, especially in my case, like if you've built up those relationships that you can then reach out to, then that does help. But still you're thinking, is this the biggest mistake of my life? And thankfully when I had signed with him, I had had other agents interested at the time from those different contests, all of them including Andrea sent back to me, you know, because you have an offer of representation on this right now.

Chelsea:           I'm not going to offer just because I feel like it still needs a bit of work before moving forward. But they were like literally, if you part ways at any point, please contact me and let me know. So I think they may have even been interested in hearing from me just off of that steam punk romance. But I had already written The Wood at that point. So I sent that one out. I don't know that they would've taken it on, but they would have at least remembered and acknowledged and that would have also continued to give me that push to keep going, I think. Um, so that's why that professional demeanor and being nice and just maintaining those relationships is so important.

Mindy:             Yes, absolutely. That's why you don't respond to that email saying, well I found somebody else that wants this without the work, so ha ha, I'll see you on the New York Times bestseller list, you know? No, it doesn't work that way. I want to follow up to on what you said about contests. You mentioned Miss Snark's, First Victim. That was a very popular blog about 10 years ago and no longer in operation I don't believe. But I also participated with Miss Snark and the Baker's Dozen. I did get nibbles off of that. And of course you mentioned Pitch Wars, which is very popular. Talk to me about contests and how to use those and the boost that you get from them.

Chelsea:           I think the best thing about writing contests is the fact that you can so easily network with so many different people at different stages of their writing careers. Um, cause I think you have to go into it with that attitude. I think if you go into the attitude of I'm going to get in this contest and I'm going to get a bunch of offers of representation, something amazing, like you're most likely going to have those hopes dashed at some point. Not because it doesn't happen, but just because the likelihood when there's so many people trying to get in the same contest, I think it's better to just think to yourself, okay, I'm doing this with the hope that I'll be accepted into this contest and I'll get agent requests and everything. But even if all that happens is I connect with other writers who can be possibly future critique partners or just cheerleaders along this journey, like that's such an amazing thing all on its own. So I definitely think contests are amazing things do. Um, for both of those reasons that it can get you visibility, but it can also help you network in a career and where, you know, there's no water cooler that we all go to to talk. So it can be very lonely career. And so to meet those people online is amazing. You can talk to somebody across the country who is going through the exact same journey as you and they'll understand what you're going through in a way that your family and friends just can't.

Mindy:             If you want to have a community that actually understands what it's like to be rejected when you wrote a novel, yeah, it's gotta be another writer. That's all there is to it. Coming up, learning how to balance writing the next book against the time investment of marketing, your backlist.

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Mindy:             So Remember Me is your second book. Your first was The Wood, which you mentioned, and I had a guest earlier this month that I talked to about the phrase sophomore effort, which is often used when it comes to second books or second albums, whatever the medium is and rarely is it used as a compliment. So what do you find to be the specific challenges of the second book?

Chelsea:           It definitely is a challenge and it's across the board. It's something that you hear all the time. I don't think I experienced it quite in the same way as other people do just because since The Wood was my fifth book that I'd written when it got picked up, I had already kind of gotten into this mentality of just keep writing, like just keep working on the next one. So you don't think about what's happening with the one that's on submission. So even before The Wood was picked up, I'd had Andrea as my agent and she was shopping around, but it hadn't been picked up yet. I wrote a middle grade that I loved. It was very like Tim Burton esque. I may go back to it at some point and try to polish it up. I don't think it was quite primetime ready at the time, but that kind of got me to continue writing.

Chelsea:           And then even when The Wood had been picked up before it was published, I wrote, Remember Me, I wrote the next book before The Wood was published. So I wasn't thinking about how many copies did The Wood sell and can I ever do this again? Like I just kept that mentality of keep writing and I think that that has really helped. So if I did go through the sophomore effect, I think I went through it earlier, like even before I got an agent because I just told myself to not get too wrapped up in expectations of other people. Whether it's publishing, people are readers, you know, at some point you have to remember why you love what you do and just keep doing it.

Mindy:             When it comes to expectations. Also managing your own is a really big thing. Obviously you went through five years and five novels of trying to get published. So you, your expectations had already been managed for you, right? Yeah, and I think that's really healthy, you know?

Chelsea:           Yeah. I think I'd gone through so much rejection that to me just getting published was like I'd hit my dream just in that alone. So anything that happened after that was the cherry on top moment. So to me it was like I got published, I'm good. Even though of course you want your book to be like a New York Times bestselling book, I was at a place, I was like, if that doesn't happen, I'm just thankful that this dream came true. And I think that helped a lot with that too.

Mindy:             It's funny that you mentioned that because I was just thinking earlier today, for whatever reason, in my own publishing journey, because I was querying for like 10 years, my first book that got published was a post-apocalyptic survival novel, Not A Drop to Drink. I was fortunate enough that it just slipped into that tail end of a post apoc era, but it really did just squeak in. I was on submission for six months and people kept saying, yeah, this is great. But that genre is done, so we're not gonna pick it up. I was already having conversations with my agent about the next thing. We got to write the next thing because this one isn't going to be what gets published first for you. And at one point there was an indie publisher that had expressed interest, they no longer exist. They folded shortly after, but they had expressed interest and my agent said to me, well, So-and-so is interested, but I've heard rumors about authors having difficulty getting paid and it's in the wind that they're going to be going under. I don't think we should pursue this. My first reaction was just, I don't care if I don't get paid, I just want a book published. And my agent was just like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You get paid.

Chelsea:           Yeah. I think sometimes you can get into this mentality especially when you've been trying for so long to get published and you've gotten rejection upon rejection where maybe your expectations are too low. So it does help to have your agent be like, no, your work is worth getting paid for.

Mindy:             And I really was just thinking about it this afternoon because I just remember being that naive that I was just like, no, just put a cover on it, please. They have good covers. I like that company. Going back to that idea of the sophomore experience, what about marketing appearances, social media efforts? What did you learn the first time around that helped you on the second time or was there anything that you learned that you were like, okay, I'll never do that again. This was something that was a waste of my time or just didn't work?

Chelsea:           Yeah. I was really fortunate because I had several author friends who I'd met through things like those contests. They were 2015 debuts, so their books debuted two years before The Wood did. They were very open with me about their journeys, their experience especially with marketing. And so I was very fortunate in that I got to kind of learn from them a little bit before even going into my own. And one of them was very open about the fact that she worked really hard at marketing. Like she did literally everything you could ever think to do and more marketing wise and took on so much onto herself. And in the end she couldn't tell if there was really a difference. Like if she hadn't done everything under the sun, if it would've sold any better or any worse. And in that time because she was focusing so much on marketing, she wasn't writing anything new.

Chelsea:           And so she wasn't able to do the number one piece of advice, which I think is extremely true, which is nothing sells backlist like frontlist. She had nothing to put out there for frontlist cause she'd focused so much on marketing. And so seeing her go through that already put me in a mindset of marketing is important. It's not that it's not, but it shouldn't be something that consumes you to the point where you're not working on the next book. And so I already kind of was going into it thinking, okay, I'm going to market it, but I'm not going to go too wild with it. And then I think the biggest thing I learned from marketing The Wood is that there's a lot of advice out there on everything you should do, but I think you need to find what works best for you and what doesn't drain you.

Chelsea:           So for example, Twitter and Instagram come very naturally to me. Those are fine. Facebook, I want to get better at. I'm trying to get better at it for some reason. It just doesn't come as naturally to me to check Facebook, so I'm working on that. The one thing that I know from many authors is very important is the newsletter. I would love to be amazing at newsletters. Again, I'm going to work on this, but I learned that for me it just does not come easily or naturally and I can spend half a day or even a full writing day trying to put a newsletter together and I realize that's a full writing day I just missed out on. And especially now that I'm a mom, my time is so limited that I can not be spending writing time trying to put together a newsletter. You have to figure out what works for you and it's draining you, and if it's keeping you from writing the next book, then maybe that's not the particular thing you should be doing right now. As long as you have other things that you're doing that are working for you. Like don't try to do everything.

Mindy:             Don't try to do everything. I personally used to be on every single platform out there and for the life of me, I couldn't make Tumbler work. Nobody gave a shit about the stuff I was doing on Tumblr, it didn't matter. I don't know why I couldn't figure out Tumbler. Whatever I do, whatever works for me on every other platform. On Tumblr, no, it was just this big void for me and I tried for like three years and finally I was like, okay, you know what? I'm wasting my time. Tumbler doesn't work for me and I deleted my account because whatever the magic is that works on that platform, I don't have it.

Chelsea:           I haven't even tried Tumbler just because even as somebody like just looking at Tumbler, I don't always understand it so I just haven't even tried it. I'm sure it's amazing. I just, it doesn't come naturally to me.

Mindy:             No, me neither. And Pinterest is the same way. I don't have any interest in figuring out how to use Pinterest as an author. I know some people have luck with it. It seems to me like if you're going to do that, you're going to have to really lean into it and give it a lot of effort and I'm not going to do that. I have a really healthy Facebook page. I don't know why, but for whatever reason Facebook - cause I always hear everybody saying Facebook is pointless. Now I have a really effective Facebook author page and I guess it's just, I think maybe the librarian outreach that I've done and from being a librarian for so long, so it's not a teen crowd. It's an adult crowd that I have on Facebook. But Facebook and Twitter and I'm starting to understand how a wonderful Instagram is. So that is my bread and butter.

Mindy:             You mentioned newsletters and I'm going to tell you, I just spoke with another guest right before I started talking to you and we had a long conversation about email newsletters. I told her, and I'll repeat the story, that I have been doing it wrong for a very long time. For years and years I've been doing newsletters wrong. Everyone kept saying you have to have a newsletter, you have to have a newsletter, and my newsletters were just bombing. Every time I would send one out, my open rate was like 5% my click rate was like one, it was terrible and I'm like, why? Why do people say you need to have this? And finally a friend of mine who was a fellow author who is on my mailing list, emailed me back like off of my email, my promotional email list, and was like, Mindy, you are doing this wrong.

Mindy:             I was just like, oh I am? And she said yes. And she recommended a book to me called Newsletter Ninja is by Tammy Labrecque. She's like, buy this, read it. You will be amazed. Read it in like an afternoon and applied the things that she recommended. And now my newsletter has like a 50 or 60% open rate and like a 20% click rate. Like it's insane and they're very, very simple steps. So I highly recommended to you. And once you learn the really simple steps, you're just like, oh, it really makes a difference. So I highly recommended that to you. Newsletter Ninja.

Mindy:             Lastly, the key to writing horror, especially for younger audiences.

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Chelsea Bobulski.png

Mindy:             So I want to talk to you for a little bit about genre and specifically about horror because that is the area that you write in. And I think it's a tricky one because I always see readers clamoring for it, shows like Stranger Things have millions of watchers. But horror has yet to be the thing in publishing. I've never seen it blow up the way that other genres have. And in fact I even see publishers veering away from it and commenting that it's difficult to market. So as a horror author, what is your take on that? Like specifically as a YA horror author? What's your take on that?

Chelsea:           Yeah, I'm glad we're talking about this cause I have so many thoughts. To use Stranger Things as an example because it is huge - I think the biggest thing is that horror, while it's at the center of Stranger Things, I don't think that's actually what draws people in. I think the very first people to watch it when it probably were for the most part fanatics who saw it and thought, oh great, like something for me. And then they told all of their friends about it, whether their friends were into horror, not, not because of the horror aspect. I think the majority of people pushed it as you have to see this show. I've never seen a better representation of the 80s. So it was the nostalgia of the 80s and how beautifully they captured it I mean down to every little detail that I think drew most of the audience in.

Chelsea:           And then the fact that horror was a part of it for people, whether they loved horror or not, they just went with it. They were like, this is great, I'm into it. You also have the human element that's so important of people relating to these characters and wanting to see where these characters go. But I think it is important to have something else that your readers outside of your horror audience can really grab onto. So for example, with Remember Me, we pitched it to editors as the horror of The Shining meets the romance of Titanic. So while horror is a big part of it, the romance is actually just as big of a part and so it can actually reach larger audiences in that sense. Another big thing in terms of marketing that genre that can be so difficult is I think you have to get your cover design right.

Chelsea:           So for example, The Wood, I love the cover, it's everything I could have ever wanted to be in more. But the thing that surprised me was when I was doing school visits, the number of middle school readers who were reading up, who tend to say this to me. They would look at the book cover and say it looks too scary for me. The cover, it's a white cover with an autumn leaf on it. And it looks like there's blood dripping off the leaf. The blood is actually kind of metaphorical. Cause if you read the book, you'll know that the wood is this magical place where instead of out of like the leaves just changing color in the autumn, it's almost like they're painted and the paint rolls off the leaves. And so it's red paint rolling off this autumn leaf. So that's like what it actually is.

Chelsea:           But it's also alluding to the fact that the wood has this sinister side. So I would explain to them, well it's more of an atmospheric creepiness as opposed to really scary. But that just opened my eyes to the fact that a cover in the horror genre can turn off a lot of readers who might think, oh that's too scary for me. Even if it's actually isn't. It was really important to me that my Remember Me cover convey the fact that there is this darker element to the book, but that that's not all there is. And when I actually got the first cover concept it was exactly the same as it is now. It has these beautiful chandelier's, it's a little dark, it feels very like gothic Romancey but the girl on the cover who is kind of see through, so you can tell she's kind of ghostly.

Chelsea:           She looked a lot more like the ghost from The Ring, which is very creepy. So I emailed my design team back and I said, this is amazing. I love it. I'm just worried that people are going to see it and assume it's like a collection of ghost stories or that, that the horror aspect is all there is because it really takes away from the romance aspect. My cover designer came back with five brand new covers including the same cover, but with the ghost girl changed to be less, less creepy. And that's the one we ended up going with. So I was very happy with it cause I love the cover overall. I just wanted to make sure it didn't turn people off who might think, oh that's too scary for me. So I think it's important to have more than just horror as a part of it.

Chelsea:           So for example, like Stephen King I think is the big name, you know, an adult horror that everyone knows. And I think the reason, there's several reasons he was so successful and I think part of it was just timing. When his first books came out, I mean that's when I'm pretty sure like The Exorcist and Poltergeist and all these huge movies were coming out. And so it was kind of perfect timing. But he's also very edgy and at the same time very literary. And I think that that drew a larger crowd into his books than maybe would have otherwise. And then on the opposite end, you have young adult in between, you have Stephen King on the adult end and then in the middle grade end you have authors like RL Stine who were very popular when I was a kid. I'm not sure if he's as popular now.

Chelsea:           I think he is, but I think that horror for younger markets works well because a lot of kids have a lot of fears. And to address them in a fun way is actually very appealing to them. I think the young adult market is harder because you need something special about it to really push it over the edge to reach those audiences who otherwise wouldn't pick it up just like Stranger Things did. It had this special nostalgia for the 80s that really captured audience attention and I think you need that in young adult market too. So I do think the next Stephen King of young adult is out there. I think they just need to figure out what makes their book special. Just like every author has to do that across every genre.

Mindy:             So the thing that gets me about Stephen King is that yes, he is the iconic horror writer and I love him and I've read everything he's written, but his first book, the one that broke through is Carrie. And that is technically YA.

Chelsea:           Yes, very true.

Mindy:        And I think that's really funny because I hear so often - and I do think it's true -that why YA is a difficult place for horror and I think it's hilarious even though it is true because the iconic horror novel from the King of horror is a YA novel.

Chelsea:           Definitely. I think that, you know, at the time I don't think they even had the category of YA. And even today, I don't know. I mean it might get placed with YA if it came out today, but I don't know if it would have just because some of the content of it. Publishers might've pushed it into the adult realm. I'm not quite sure, even though it centers on a teenage girl.

Mindy:             No, I definitely think that, um, at the time adult was the place to go, but I think it could work as as YA today. The other thing I want to follow up on, you mentioned the covers for horror, which is very true. It is tricky when we're talking about marketing. Your cover is the face of your book. That is the first thing people are going to see and decide whether or not they're going to pick up and actually look at the writing and the blurb on the inside covers. I've always heard, and I don't know if this is true, but I've always heard that if you have a horror novel and it is a creature feature that you never ever put the monster on the cover.

Chelsea:           I haven't heard that, but it makes sense just for the same reason of you don't want to alienate those readers who might look at that cover and think, oh, that's too scary for me because there might be other things in the book that they would really love and then they would kind of jump onto the creature feature train, and be like, oh, this is actually kind of cool. So I can definitely definitely see that for sure. I mean I think it's totally fine if as long as you specifically want to hit that horror market, or like I don't care whether it reaches a broad audience or not. Like I want to take care of the readers who actually really love the genre, then I think it's great. But I think in order to cross over into other audiences, I could see why you wouldn't necessarily want to feature that. And for my personal writing, my horror aspects of my books tend to be more atmospheric than like jump out and scare you. I mean I certainly have a couple of those moments, but because of that it's really important to me that the cover conveys that it's, it's more of that atmosphere at core just so that readers know what they're getting.

Mindy:             What are you working on right now and where can readers find you online?

Chelsea:           I have a middle grade that's finished and then I also have one young adult book that I'm plotting, so it's in very beginning stages. Who knows if it'll go anywhere. And I have another young adult that I am in the beginning stages of drafting with a co-writer. Um, so that's really exciting and fun just to try something different. And then I have an adult Edwardian Romance, which is so different from what I typically write, but I'm really enjoying it just as something to just have fun with. I think sometimes you need a pet project that's just for fun and that's kind of what I'm doing with that one and we'll see where it goes. But especially right now I have one child and I'm preparing for my next baby to be born in August. And so I think it's good for me to have several different projects that I can just kind of pick up or leave because my brain is just not in that space to like really dedicate to one book. So I have several different projects up in the air right now. Where people can find me, they can find me at my website, https://chelseabobulski.com/ as well as on Twitter or Instagram and Facebook all under Chelsea Bobulski.


Research For The Orphan's Song Plus Writing For Adults Vs. Teens with Lauren Kate

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Mindy:             Welcome to Writer, Writer Pants On Fire. Where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing industry, marketing, and more. I'm your host Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at MindyMcGinnis.com and make sure to visit the Writer, Writer Pants On Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques, and more at writerwriterpantsonfire.com

Mindy:             If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit writerwriterpantsonfire.com and click support the blog and podcast in the sidebar.

Mindy:             Today's guest is Lauren Kate, the number one New York Times and internationally bestselling author of the Fallen novels, the Teardrop novels and The Betrayal of Natalie Hargrove. Her books have been translated into more than 30 languages. Kate joined me today to talk about the inspiration for her newest adult historical, The Orphan’s Song.

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Mindy:             We're here talking about The Orphan's Song by Lauren Kate which is a historical, it is set in Venice in 1736. So I was curious about why that location and that specific time period?

Lauren:            The story kind of jumped out at me. I was on a book tour for another novel about three, four years ago. I was in Venice and I was returning one night from an event to the apartment where I was staying with my husband and my two really little children at the time and I was trying to get home to them and I ended up getting really lost, which if you've ever been to Venice, it's just kind of like a rite of passage as a tourist there. I found myself before this big building, this stone compound called The Hospital of the Incurables and all the streets surrounding this building were named for it: The alley of the Incurables and the Bridge of the Incurables, and there was just something so content and romantic about the sound of that name.

Lauren:            I wanted to know what the building was and who the incurables had been. So I did a little bit of research on that trip and the stuff that I found out about this place, it drew me in so completely. For about 500 years, starting in the 15th century until the fall of the republic, which happens at the end of the 17th century, this building was an orphanage for families and children who were trained to become musicians who played instruments and sang in the church choir. And in the era of my novel, which is like the middle of the 18th century, like 1737 they are the most famous musicians in the world. So not only are these orphan girls attracting like the best maestros and composers to write music and teach them like Vivaldi, - Vivaldi, got his career teaching these orphan girls - they are also like a tourist destination.

Lauren:            If you're a wealthy gentleman in England, when you come of age, you go on something called the grand tour, go to Rome to see the Vatican. You go to Florence to see the David and then you go to Venice to hear the orphans sing. They were kind of rock stars of their day. I loved the idea of these children with unfortunate and heartbreaking circumstances rising to prominence and wealth and extreme musical prowess. I was struck by one element. Joining the choir as one of these girls, you had to sign an oath that basically signed your life away to the church. You are not allowed to leave the church. If you became a member of the choir, you weren't allowed to step outside the walls of the compound, but for I think three or four times a year where they would go to just different churches and sing.

Lauren:            If you ever left the orphanage to get married or anything else, you could never sing or perform music again. That part of you belonged to the church. So of course I'm thinking about the rebel girl for whom that's just completely untenable and feels very stifling. She's got to find her way to resist this and break free.

Mindy:             So it's kind of like a cult in some ways.

Lauren:            In some ways it is because there was such a draw to become one of these musicians. It was the best thing that could happen to you if you were an orphan. I mean that was the highest you could rise. You could rise really well above your station, you could make a lot of money, and you're getting love letters from famous people from all around the world and there were limits to it. There just wasn't a lot of personal freedom.

Mindy:             You are talking about these orphans being brought into this lifestyle and perhaps this didn't come into your research, but I'm curious, what about the orphans that did not have any musical talent?

Lauren:            They were resigned to a much drearier life. They still often stayed at the orphanage until they were about 40 years old. At which point they quote unquote retired to a nunnery. They would sew the garments for the girls in the choir. They would prepare their meals, serve as the nurses to the babies who would grow up to become girls in the choir. The whole focus of the work in the orphanage was to further the musical careers of this select group of girls. There was an audition process and if you didn't make it, you were stuck doing the drudge work for the rest of your life.

Mindy:             So like support staff for the choir.

Lauren:            Exactly.

Mindy:             You mentioned getting love letters then from famous people basically, fans as well. I'm assuming then that there is a sexual element that can come into play then with these young girls, yet they are in many ways the property of the church. So how is that juggled?

Lauren:            In this era, first of all, it was considered really uncouth to perform on a stage. Like opera singers were kind of in the same sphere as prostitutes. It was not a noble thing to do even though people love to go see the opera. You didn't want your daughter to grow up and be an opera singer if you were in the upper class, except for these girls because of the way the church restricted every aspect of their lives, they were considered very pure, very holy, like they were singing in the image of the vestal virgins. They were protected when they would step into the church to sing. They sang in an elevated balcony that overlooked the church and it was protected by like a brass grate decorated with all sorts of flowers and blossoms and fruit, which really was meant to serve as a protector from the male gaze of churchgoers.

Lauren:            They wanted to be heard but not seen, but you could arrange a meeting if you wanted to marry one of them and you were wealthy. You could arrange a meeting with like the prioress of the church and she would let you come and you know, talk to the girl and see if you liked her. Again, not a lot of freedom for most of these women who grew up in this church, but this was an extremely hedonistic era in Venice masquerades and decadent parties that would sometimes go on for months and everybody's wearing masks all the time. Like not just to parties, but just going about your day and going to buy a piece of fish for dinner in the market. You're wearing a mask. It was a time of like decadence and anonymity and really wild, all sorts of wild activities. So these girls are an anomaly in this era because they were so pious and so sheltered. Again, that's going to drive a couple of them crazy and send them sneaking out into the middle of the night and seeing what else they can find in Venice.

Mindy:             Wow, that's fascinating. So in the book there's this wonderful dichotomy between what their lives are like as the choir members and as these girls that are very much the images of the vestal virgins and the pious singers. Then also they're existing in this world that is very sexual in many ways and it's a really wonderful dichotomy between those two worlds, these girls - the ones that are sneaking out - then are bridging. Talk about that for a little bit, how they are processing that as characters.

Lauren:            Okay, so Violetta she's the main, um, she's the female protagonist in the story. There are several nights where she sneaks out and one of the first nights she joins up with sort of band of revelers on the street and they lead her to this masquerade where she enters into this like a really codified process of celebrating a night. There were certain kinds of masks that you would wear for certain kinds of evenings you wanted to have. There was a mask called the moretta, which was an entirely black mask with two holes for the eyes and nothing for the mouth. There was no ribbon that attached this mask to the back of the head the way most most masks, you know, you picture, they're just tied on the back of your head. This one had no ribbon. It stayed affixed to the face because on the inside of the mouth there was a black button and the person who wore this mask was only women.

Lauren:            The woman who wore this mask bit on the button to keep it in place. So not only was your face hidden, but you were rendered basically fully mute the whole evening. And when I first learned about that, it made me feel suffocated. It felt like how restrictive, what subjugation. I was talking to the Venetian historian who led me through Venice when I was doing a lot of my research and she said, no, no, this was considered extremely erotic for them because the voice was something to be protected, something to be valued. You didn't share it, you didn't speak just to anyone. It was something that you only did when you were very intimate with someone. So you might dance with any number of men at a masquerade, but you're only going to drop that mask if you're ready to share your voice, your face, your everything was someone.

Mindy:             Oh, that's fascinating. I like it. And of course a lovely parallel between their voice when they're singing.

Lauren:            Yeah. Yeah. So I mean for Violetta especially, she is trying to really go under cover, she doesn't want anyone to hear her voice, so she is quite tempted by the lure of the moretta mask.

Mindy:             Coming up, what differences, if any, there are in writing for the adult versus the ya market.

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Mindy:             You also write at least two truly historical characters in The Orphan’s Song. There is Vivaldi as well as another composer. You say that you took your characters names actually from the roles of the students, is that correct?

Lauren:            Obviously we have lots of information. We have Vivalid's music and we have his biography. We have a lot about him, but these women for as famous as they were in their era, history overlooked them. And so to go back and search through these archives, they're orphans so that you know you can't even trace their families, but they were known by their first name and the instrument that they played. So people would, if you're going to go to Venice and see these orphans, you'd say, I'm going to go hear Laura of the Violin or Anna of the Oboe, Violetta of the Angel's Voice. These were names that I came across flipping through these big old archives and I just, I wanted to bring them to life.

Mindy:             So, so cool. The research involved when writing about an actual historical person, whether it's Vivaldi or anyone, really when you're writing about a person that is fairly well known in the average reader's mind when it comes to someone who is already famous - any reservations about writing about a real person?

Lauren:            Yes, and I think that that's probably why Vivaldi is a shadow figure in the novel. We never really see him in the flesh. We do meet Nikola Porpora who was the maestro at the incurables. The reader is not intimate with him. The characters are not really intimate with him. I like the backbone of a historical novel. I like being able to do a lot of research and really situate a story within a world that was real. But I also like freedom for my characters to surprise me, and I know that if I have a real historical character that I'm writing up as a protagonist, I worry about that. I worry about how much freedom I would be able to let her have to surprise me to go left when I wanted her to go right. If I'm trying to adhere to like some real personal history, so there's something nice and freeing about having invented characters in a real historical setting.

Mindy:             Yes, absolutely. When you're writing about a real person, you are, as you're saying, restricted by what you can have them do and where they can even be most times, especially if it's a very famous person, their lives have been researched so thoroughly that they can actually pin down where they were or where they probably were at any given time. You don't have the ability to even move them around a global map, perhaps the way that you want them to, and it restricts your own setting. It also restricts you in that you may have a reader that picks up this book because they are - not particularly this book - but picks up any book because they are interested in Vivaldi or whomever, and then when they pick up your book and you have a detail that is incorrect about their life. That reader that is going to either feel misled or definitely feel like you have perhaps not done your research.

Lauren:            Yes. Yeah, and sometimes I think too about, right now I'm working on another book and it's set during the American civil war. Again with with the female characters for whom there's not a lot of documented history. I feel a sense of freedom but with male characters who were quite famous - one of the characters I'm writing about is a civil war general on the union side. I'm not writing about Ulysses S. Grant, his name is General Hooker, Joseph Hooker, so he's famous in some circles and lesser known in other circles, but I think you know he, he does have descendants who are carrying on his history in a specific way. You want to just do right by the history of these real people and that does, it limits what you can do with them.

Mindy:             The restrictions in writing about a real human being. Those are a very real thing. So I wanted to ask you also about your YA novels. I myself am aa YA writer and you broke into YA in a very big way a few years back. So now that you are coming out with The Orphan's Song, which is an adult historical title, I just wondered about your process when it came to writing adult versus YA. How did you go about writing differently or did you not? Did you just write the story that you had inside of you?

Lauren:            The latter. I just wrote the story. In some ways the processes is exactly the same. It's still very hard for me to get a first draft out. I still struggle with showing enough of the characters interiority, you know, the things that are challenging to me about writing are constant unfortunately. You know, I think one of the differences really, I would say the only difference between something that's geared for a YA audience and something that's not necessarily is the scope that the story will look at is going to be more focused in a YA novel. Even though The Orphan's Song has characters who are teenagers for much of the book, the book looks at a larger historical context and it looks at characters in different moments of their life than would be interesting to just a teen reader. As a writer of YA books, you'll understand this as well and probably some of the listeners who enjoy YA books understand this, but there's something really brilliant and focused about like the narcissism of being a teenager and like not caring at all about your mom's hopes and dreams and aspirations and as a writer that lets you get very close to one character's psyche, which I think can make a great, an enjoyable experience as a reader and a writer. I think it's just zooming out a little bit is the feeling of writing a non YA novel for me.

Mindy:             Very cool. No, that makes absolute sense to me. I also was thinking in terms as I read the book, in terms of it being a historical for adults, I've often noticed in historical writing for adults that there is desire on the part of the readership, that particular readership, they like description more. They want to feel that investment of the surroundings, but also clothing from what I understand of the historical adult audience is that they like that description more than the traditional YA audience does.

Lauren:            Yeah. I think my writing style, I'm sure it's changed, but I think it's always been maybe more descriptive in general anyway. You know, my young adult fantasy novels are quite, the setting of them is quite palpable. It's, is its own character and I spend a lot of time letting the protagonist inhabit like a very physical world that almost like sticks to your skin. I agree that like a lot of the YA novels I read, it's more about character and it's more about emotion.

Mindy:             Why don't you tell us where listeners can find you online and maybe a little bit more about what you're working on right now.

Lauren:            Yeah. So you can find me all over the place online. I'm on Twitter and Instagram at Lauren Kate books and Facebook, I think it's Lauren Kate author. My website is Lauren Kate books.net. I love to interact with readers and fellow book lovers online. So drop me a message or anybody out there listening. Yes. I spoke a little bit about what I'm working on now, but uh, in a nutshell, it's three prostitutes solving a mystery on the front lines of the civil war.

Mindy:             That's so awesome. I'm here for that in a big way.

Lauren:            Thank you, Mindy. This was wonderful. Thanks for having me.

Mindy:             Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at www.writerwriterapantsonfire.com If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you, or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit www.writerwriterpantsonfire.com and click support the blog and podcast in the sidebar.

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